Covid & school children - what we've known all along.

Randy said:
I get what you are saying but I'm a firm believer that the vaccine stops the spread, I can't wrap my head around the fact billions upon billions of dollars have been spent on something that wouldn't stop it spreading.
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It stops it becoming a real medical issue for the vaccinated, so they defeat the virus themselves much quicker, much lessening the chances of them passing it on, and hopefully almost eliminating 99% from having to be hospitalised. Protecting the NHS and reducing the chances of transmission in hospitals too.
 
Some of the problem here is that whilst the scientists are speaking English many people do not understand the scientific usage of English. The example of vaccination not stopping infection is a good one. The scientists tell us that they "don't know that vaccination will stop transmission", they tell us this because they DON'T KNOW, a scientist will only assert that they know something if it has been proven. They will tell you that in their experience vaccination does indeed reduce transmission in all other cases but because they have not observed or tested this behaviour they do no know it to be true.

Now compare the usage of the English language by a Tory politician of your choice...
 
The issue we have is we exist in one version of events with no direct comparison.

How many more deaths have the policy decisions of the Tories directly caused? It's not possible to know. Would things have been better if they done x instead of y? Who knows?

Has opening schools for one day caused more infections and deaths? Maybe but its not possible to say how many.

Manipulation of data to suit their narrative and the impossibility to directly pin down preventable deaths and economic damage caused by their monumental **** up's is what this government exists on.

It will also never be the "right time" for a public enquiry into the Conservatives handling of the crisis.
 
Randy said:
Online isnt working for my 4 year old mate and that's with me been able devote all my time towards because I'm still sat on furlough. I dread to think what it's like for other parents who are having to work from home AND educate the children using Teams for example.
Yes I'm sure online learning is easier the older kids are but for kids of lower primary school age it's like trying to push water up a hill.

Simple fact is the unions are going to be all over this and will probably rally for schools to be closed for the rest of school year.
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We all have to change our behaviours and routines.
Its not just parents of young children.
Instead of dreading what other parents might be doing - its worth finding out and learning what alternatives are working and which arent.
Teachers are vulnerable like we all are.
Dont blame the unions - we all want to protect each other.
Its not just about us as individuals and the inconvenience to us, but to everyone.
There are no "simple fact(s)" so we have to consider alternatives - which is where strategic planning and resource management is put in place by Government and implemented by local authorities and councils - who are in tune with local areas and conditions.
 
It's really quite simple, you drive down the number of infections to a level where test, track and trace can detect and stem any potential outbreaks.
The problem is that we, as a nation are desperate to return to normality and a year into the pandemic we seem to be as far away from normality as we've ever been.
At 40k infections per day (that we know of) there is no way that our excuse for a track and trace program can make a dent so we have to bring down infections and improve track and trace.
The government could do a lot worse than put a target on the number of infections that would see the beginning of lifting restrictions and make it sufficiently low to incentivise the public to reach it. No 'just good enough' numbers so that we'll risk infections going back up, but really low numbers.
I know most are being 'careful', but 40k infections a day show that being 'careful' isn't enough and the sooner it dawns on us as a nation that we'll be looking at restrictions indefinitely unless we drive the infections down massively then we'll be in this situation again next winter. As a nation I mean from the government down through employers and the man and woman on the street. We're going to crack 100000 deaths this month so whatever metric you use, we have and continue to fail this test of us as a nation.
 
Muttley said:
Some of the problem here is that whilst the scientists are speaking English many people do not understand the scientific usage of English. The example of vaccination not stopping infection is a good one. The scientists tell us that they "don't know that vaccination will stop transmission", they tell us this because they DON'T KNOW, a scientist will only assert that they know something if it has been proven. They will tell you that in their experience vaccination does indeed reduce transmission in all other cases but because they have not observed or tested this behaviour they do no know it to be true.

Now compare the usage of the English language by a Tory politician of your choice...
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Scientists generally avoid the term 'proven'. Scientific hypotheses should be, potentially, capable of refutation; unless refuted, their acceptance as 'true' is conditional. Hence, we see scientists using phrases like, 'the evidence supports the view ...', 'our current understanding is...'. To the general public, they may appear to be mealy-mouthed; they're not - they're being scientific.
 
JackG said:
Scientists generally avoid the term 'proven'. Scientific hypotheses should be, potentially, capable of refutation; unless refuted, their acceptance as 'true' is conditional. Hence, we see scientists using phrases like, 'the evidence supports the view ...', 'our current understanding is...'. To the general public, they may appear to be mealy-mouthed; they're not - they're being scientific.
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I notice the media use the word "theory" rather than "hypothesis" for not proven events.
 
To be fair scientists use theory a lot, theory of evolution, for example. When a scientific principle is enshrined, and it doesn't happen often, it becomes a law, law of gravity, for example.

There is a current scientific movement to get evolution enshrined in scientific law, so it would become the law of evolution.
 
dooderooni said:
It's really quite simple, you drive down the number of infections to a level where test, track and trace can detect and stem any potential outbreaks.
The problem is that we, as a nation are desperate to return to normality and a year into the pandemic we seem to be as far away from normality as we've ever been.
At 40k infections per day (that we know of) there is no way that our excuse for a track and trace program can make a dent so we have to bring down infections and improve track and trace.
The government could do a lot worse than put a target on the number of infections that would see the beginning of lifting restrictions and make it sufficiently low to incentivise the public to reach it. No 'just good enough' numbers so that we'll risk infections going back up, but really low numbers.
I know most are being 'careful', but 40k infections a day show that being 'careful' isn't enough and the sooner it dawns on us as a nation that we'll be looking at restrictions indefinitely unless we drive the infections down massively then we'll be in this situation again next winter. As a nation I mean from the government down through employers and the man and woman on the street. We're going to crack 100000 deaths this month so whatever metric you use, we have and continue to fail this test of us as a nation.
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The track and trace system is that useless its unbelievable. The cost and crapness is criminal
 
Archiestephens_elbow said:
The track and trace system is that useless its unbelievable. The cost and crapness is criminal
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And it should be pursued as such Archie once the enquiries start. In the short term though it needs to be made to work as part of the drive to lower infections.
To be honest, apart from the whole trying to overthrow democracy bit, we are in a similar **** show as the US. Unfortunately we haven't got a new government coming in that we can pin our hopes on.
 
Laughing said:
Sometimes common sense trumps science. The magic bullet theory, multi verse theory, wave, particle duality. If kids can catch it they can spread it. I have no doubt that the government deliberately interpreted the data they way they wanted to, either because they believe education is very important or to get people back to the office.
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Don't you mean.................Sometimes politics trumps science
 
dooderooni said:
And it should be pursued as such Archie once the enquiries start. In the short term though it needs to be made to work as part of the drive to lower infections.
To be honest, apart from the whole trying to overthrow democracy bit, we are in a similar **** show as the US. Unfortunately we haven't got a new government coming in that we can pin our hopes on.
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It should have been in public hands not outsourced to Hancocks useless pal for mega bucks. Its too important for that. But all they think about is cash
 
Archiestephens_elbow said:
It's simple. The tories hate teachers and their unions and don't care about kids in state schools.

How an ex fireplace salesman is minister for education beggars belief.... Oh I forgot its because he's a brexiteer, not because he's talented or capable.

Worst ever government and prime minister in the history of the uk
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Gavin Williamson campaigned to remain
 
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