Boro managers DO NOT chuck the cups away

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
I think we all can admit that the demands on a player playing 60 games is early 90’s to now are totally different. Players at all levels now have bodies of elite sportspeople. The demands are really high.

We can expect them to play against Barnsley, but as my last post there has to be compromise. Wilder picked a team who he thought could win the game. Let’s be honest that team should have won.

A cup run is nice, but I think a little perspective is needed in terms of our current situation
I think last night, he doesn’t want to play Howson. That’s fine. Put Hackney in with the core of senior players and let’s see what he’s got. Could he step up? Lots of people seem to rate him(Woodgate, Warnock, Wilder, obviously his youth coaches - interestingly, all very different characters with extremely different views on the game). He could be the one to come through. You have two or three more on the bench.

If we’re winning, you take Jones or Giles or Paddy off and blood Dodds or Bilongo or Finch. They have five subs now, it’s not like all the seniors would be expected to finish the game now anyway. Get the game won and then give some of them a breather.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Although the 2 cup finals and relegated season was memorable,if we would have been knocked out early doors in both of them the team we would have had the following season would arguably have been the best in the clubs history.
I was there last night and have no issues whatsoever with team selection

Playing devil's advocate, if we hadn't had the cup runs in 96/97 we would arguably have ended up with the most exciting team in our history, juninho behind Romario and Ravanelli anyone?
We accumulated enough points to finish 14th in 1996/97.

A team finishing 14th and reaching two cup finals now, the manager would win LMA Manager of the Year and be lauded as a superstar.
 

Diego

Well-known member
We all ‘want to win games of football’ I wasn’t sat there last night in west stand sweating my t*ts off hoping we got beat. Wilder wanted to win last night, he was fuming and nearly scrapped with a Barnsley player. The priority is the league, our squad is paper thin and we can’t risk losing players at this stage when we are so thin on the ground. Wilder knew there was a chance the team wouldn’t be good enough to win but it’s also a chance for fringe and younger players to make a name for themselves. It never worked out, the games out of the way now and the focus is on Sunday in which is a massive game and we can hopefully get the win and on a roll. By the time the Fa cup comes around I would expect much stronger teams. It really isn’t the end of the world.
 
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festa5

Well-known member
But how is a league cup tie in August ‘flogging them into the ground’? Looking at our second half against West Brom and what happened at QPR, these lads NEED to be playing together and building themselves into a unit.

My point about pressure is to do with Sunday’s result. You have to win it now. You’ve got no excuses for not winning as the lads will be completely fresh.

It's not about one match. It's the full programme of fixtures. One League cup match isn't a problem. But 3 full matches in 8 days at this stage of the season where some players haven't had a full pre-season, some are just back from injury and there are very few rotation options available might be. It's a cumulative effect.

He clearly could have played a full strength side tonight and again on Sunday without any detriment to performance. But the risk of injury to players, probably more so on Sunday than last night, increases. If a couple pull something and are then out for a fortnight that puts even more strain on the remaining uninjured players. Potentially a viscous cycle.

I think it's less about players being "fresh" to help us win on Sunday (although probably a factor) as them being fresh and less likely to get injured on Sunday. I'm pretty sure that's where Wilder is coming from with it.

As others have said, he's taken cups seriously in the past. His views are very much informed by the science. He has made a judgement to try and give us the best chance across multiple matches and looking longer term than just one match. He might be wrong but it's not an unreasonable approach given the size of the squad he's having to work with.
 

TeaCider

Well-known member
We had plenty of chances to win the match last night too.

It's not like the side he selected led to us being outclassed.
We were the better team throughout, even with a disjointed performance.
We missed a few sitters and then conceded in the last minute due to a goalkeeping error.
 

Muttley

Well-known member
My argument is not that the players need the rest but actually that the team needs time playing together to gel into a cohesive force. We have players like Forss and Akpom who need minutes playing but they are on the bench. We have Duncan starting when we are told we are "managing" his knee injury. I understand resting certain players like Johnny Howson and the need to re-jig the 3 CBs and I would have accepted the sense of resting Jones and Giles. I think Steffen would have benefitted from some bumping and nudging in a competitive game too though I understand the change to give Roberts game time. No I thought that particularly up front the team that started last night did not make sense.
 

Diego

Well-known member
My argument is not that the players need the rest but actually that the team needs time playing together to gel into a cohesive force. We have players like Forss and Akpom who need minutes playing but they are on the bench. We have Duncan starting when we are told we are "managing" his knee injury. I understand resting certain players like Johnny Howson and the need to re-jig the 3 CBs and I would have accepted the sense of resting Jones and Giles. I think Steffen would have benefitted from some bumping and nudging in a competitive game too though I understand the change to give Roberts game time. No I thought that particularly up front the team that started last night did not make sense.
He brought Akpom and Forss on for half hour so they got a decent run out and more minutes in the legs. Probably didn’t wanna overuse them with such a big game Sunday and they will be starters. Finch clearly isn’t ready but we had no one else’s really, was probably toss of a coin between him and Kavanagh
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
My argument is not that the players need the rest but actually that the team needs time playing together to gel into a cohesive force. We have players like Forss and Akpom who need minutes playing but they are on the bench. We have Duncan starting when we are told we are "managing" his knee injury. I understand resting certain players like Johnny Howson and the need to re-jig the 3 CBs and I would have accepted the sense of resting Jones and Giles. I think Steffen would have benefitted from some bumping and nudging in a competitive game too though I understand the change to give Roberts game time. No I thought that particularly up front the team that started last night did not make sense.
As I mentioned just now, they have five subs to play with these days. So I understand Howson or Crooks being left out, maybe the ‘keeper. But the others, they need to be building patterns and rhythms together. Last night is surely a perfect chance to go out and win 3-0, build confidence, bring the seniors off after 60-65mins and put the younger players in for a taste of it.

I understand all of the sports science stuff and would agree with it. I would just say that the balance feels wrong. If an elite footballer can’t do 60, 65, 70 minutes in August because they might break down in the next game, maybe they’re not fit enough or conditioned properly?

We seem to be in a situation where managers moan about their players having to play football matches and people just accept it. The five subs rule is perfect for nights like last night, surely.
 

Diego

Well-known member
As I mentioned just now, they have five subs to play with these days. So I understand Howson or Crooks being left out, maybe the ‘keeper. But the others, they need to be building patterns and rhythms together. Last night is surely a perfect chance to go out and win 3-0, build confidence, bring the seniors off after 60-65mins and put the younger players in for a taste of it.

I understand all of the sports science stuff and actually agree with it. I would just say that the balance feels wrong. If an elite footballer can’t do 60, 65, 70 minutes in August because they might break down in the next game, maybe they’re not fit enough or conditioned properly?

We seem to be in a situation where managers moan about their players having to play football matches and people just accept it. The five subs rule is perfect for nights like last night, surely.
We still had plenty of ‘first teamers’ on show last night. The back 3 that played the whole of last season started the game. Bola played wing back and new signing and captain for the night Smith played the other side. The middle of the pitch was where we were lacking but it’s also the position we only have 3 players so it made sense to not risk Crooks, McGree or Howson. Watmore started the game up front and then we brought the 2 lads who will more than likely start on Sunday on for half n hour.

Don’t see the issue with resting Giles and Jones, they are our most creative players
 

fmttmadmin

Administrator
Staff member
That must be some kind of record for the number of Championship teams defeated in their first League Cup tie of the season. So many giant killings.
Wonder what we are to read into it.
 

Linny

Well-known member
That’s not to mention the potential revenue he’s just pished away.
And great games/memories. Man Utd and Spurs was only last season. Great excitement before, during and after the games. Something to look forward to when your league season isn’t going as hoped. Waiting for the draw.

I’m not sure why people are having a pop at fans who are disappointed to be out of a major competition. I guess the cups mean less to the younger generation, that’s the Sky generation.
 

Chappy112

Well-known member
That must be some kind of record for the number of Championship teams defeated in their first League Cup tie of the season. So many giant killings.
Wonder what we are to read into it.
That promotion to the premier league is about 50x more money than a good cup run.
 

Linny

Well-known member
No because they are playing for a reason if they get injured in the league that’s football.
Bizarre comment from a football fan. Especially a Boro fan.

So the League Cup is no reason to play? I guess Boro have still won “f*** all” in your house then.
 

Jedi boro

Well-known member
Bizarre comment from a football fan. Especially a Boro fan.

So the League Cup is no reason to play? I guess Boro have still won “f*** all” in your house then.
Is that what I said ???

No

What I actually said was I agreed with wilder leaving out key players ( as sheff u eill sldo be doing tonight as well as did all the other champ clubs no Gyokeres for cov for example). Viv then said so what if they get injured playing shef u.

I replied if they get injured in a league game that’s too bad but it’s the league and you have to accept the risk rnd one of the cup isn’t in my opinion an acceptable risk.
 

Jedi boro

Well-known member
That must be some kind of record for the number of Championship teams defeated in their first League Cup tie of the season. So many giant killings.
Wonder what we are to read into it.
I thought it was quite telling as well rob.

Be interesting what sides shef u and wba put out tonight.
 

festa5

Well-known member
And great games/memories. Man Utd and Spurs was only last season. Great excitement before, during and after the games. Something to look forward to when your league season isn’t going as hoped. Waiting for the draw.

I’m not sure why people are having a pop at fans who are disappointed to be out of a major competition. I guess the cups mean less to the younger generation, that’s the Sky generation.
I don't think anyone is pleased to be out are they?

The disagreement is around whether Wilder was right to rest players.

Happy to be corrected but don't think I've seen anyone have a pop at fans for being disappointed we're out.

Some seem to think we should have played our full strength team, others think Wilder was right not to. That's the disagreement isn't it?

We should have won the game either way.
 

Marvanelli

Well-known member
The biggest reason we didn't finish in the top 6 last season was due to the cup run.

Last night was a very good performance from the kids and ironically the thing that let us down was the finishing from Watmore & Forss.

Thankfully we're out of the competition - a competition which is virtually impossible to win for us at the moment - and we now have a midweek rest when the next round is played.

Can't believe the OTT reaction by some on here. Genuinely ridiculous.

If you offered me a good performance and a loss, before a ball was kicked, I'd have snapped your hands off.
 

festa5

Well-known member
I don't think anyone is pleased to be out are they?

The disagreement is around whether Wilder was right to rest players.

Happy to be corrected but don't think I've seen anyone have a pop at fans for being disappointed we're out.

Some seem to think we should have played our full strength team, others think Wilder was right not to. That's the disagreement isn't it?

We should have won the game either way.
The biggest reason we didn't finish in the top 6 last season was due to the cup run.

Last night was a very good performance from the kids and ironically the thing that let us down was the finishing from Watmore & Forss.

Thankfully we're out of the competition - a competition which is virtually impossible to win for us at the moment - and we now have a midweek rest when the next round is played.

Can't believe the OTT reaction by some on here. Genuinely ridiculous.

If you offered me a good performance and a loss, before a ball was kicked, I'd have snapped your hands off.

I stand corrected 😂
 
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