Bizarre management?

Corcaigh_the_Cat

Well-known member
I’m not saying that, I’m suggesting that Akpom is the best they have come up with and as usual the forward isn’t good enough. The club has a history of signing players managers haven’t wanted.
That's rubbish. The managers have all had an input when it comes to signing players. They take credit for the decent ones and rightly should be slated for the failures.

The really poor managers look to place the blame elsewhere, I don't think that will be the case with Warnock, as much as I don't particularly rate his style of play.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Not sure why you think I don’t like quotes 🤔 My comment was that people say things they don’t always mean or believe themselves, sometimes they speak to an audience, sometimes for a business etc, because it is said does not make it true, some things are for public consumption but may not always be accurate. As for self preservation, Karanka said his gift comment about 2 of the signings immediately after their official announcement and on Gestede, after a game, (WHU I think), so hardly self preservation. As for backing him to the hilt, I don’t buy that.

They gave him tools, just not the ones he needed to get the job done. In Jan 2017, AK rightly ranted on about wanting pace and creativity and about being given 2 championship centre forwards instead (although I am pretty sure he did want Bamford). He knew without pace and creativity we were doomed. I was calling for it from 2015/16 season myself. Gibson acknowledged it in his ‘smash the league interview’. He then sanctioned a £50M splurge on a lack of pace and creativity in the final third, only a poor RB had pace and we sold him 6 months later (amazingly for a profit).

I think you know why managers like/liked Gibson, he was happy to spend ££££, managers like that and he wasn’t known then for being trigger happy. I wish he trusted AK’s judgement more in the Jan 2017 window and Monk and Pulis’s afterwards less mind. Most clubs operate similar recruitment identification methods, I am not sure their owners get so involved mind (therein may be an issue), but as I don’t follow other teams as closely, who knows.

Since his sacking of Woodgate and appointment of Warnock, I think (and hope) he will trust Warnock‘s judgement more about future signings. The issue will be getting them over the line now we can’t and wont overpay. As for Akpomb, bearing in mind it was a gamble in a pandemic, Warnock wanted a striker and he and the club jointly rolled the dice, ‘craps’ is an appropriate name. I believe Warnock agreed his signing, but Warnock likely openly fibbed about him being first choice tbf, that was clearly Moore from all we were led to believe. Who knows where Akpomb really was on the list. I doubt even AC-12 could help there.
You mentioned me quoting stuff as if you thought I was trying to gain some sort of advantage, or twist something. Karanka lost his rag when the club didn't sign Bojan, Jese or Snodgrass but the reasons for those not happening were well documented at the time. Snodgrass would probably have made a difference, granted, but he still have only had Negredo to pass the ball to. Everything was pinned on him because Karanka would never go with two up top, which was a part of the problem as well. We did lack quality, creativity, speed, but we also lacked ambition on the field too. And what have Bojan and Jese done since then? There does seem to be a sense that one or a combination of those three players would've kept us up but I don't see it really. Presumably Bamford and Gestede were the next players down the line after those. Don't forget Guedioura as well, who was another one apparently signed against the manager's wishes - or without his blessing at least - until he took him to his next club.

Which players do you think Gibson forced onto Robson, McClaren, Strachan, Mowbray? Presumably he has always done it? I'm just interested to know why certain signings are singled out. When we got relegated in 2009 the chairman was criticised for taking his eye off the ball, which may or may not be true - I think there was a general feeling of complacency leading into a relegation battle - but it also criticised for buying players above the manager's head. Is it possible for him to have lost interest and exerted too much control at the same time?

Afonso Alves - Southgate had talked frequently about scouting him. He said he caught the eye in a pre-season friendly, I think he scored against us, and then we kept an eye on him after that. They'd wanted him for ages. When Southgate got sacked he said something to Express about how he didn't sign him, to which Keith Lamb came out and said wasn't true. Southgate mentioned that he wanted Brett Emerton but was told there wasn't enough money for him but we then signed Alves. He didn't say "I wanted Emerton but was told there was no money... which might've been because I'd already signed Huth, O'Neil, Mido, Arca, Aliadiere, Digard, Tuncay, Young, Euell, Hoyte, Lee Dong-Gook, Shawky and Woodgate." Do you see what I'm saying about managers just planting seeds in the media to try and distance themselves from things for the good of their own reputation?

I think with Alves, we were in big trouble and weren't scoring goals. The club went and got a striker they had ALL wanted and agreed on. It didn't work out and we went down. But Southgate, I didn't hear him distancing himself after Alves scored a brace against Manchester United. He only did it later on, when he thought it would benefit him ahead of getting back into football management. I don't hold that against him, I just find it grating at times when so many people use Alves as a stick with which to beat the club or continually trot out the lines about the club buying players the manager doesn't want.

As I said earlier, who was it who signed Sam Morsy? I think that is a tricky one because he's been good for us this season. He's done a good job. It would be interesting to know why his name never crops up when discussing issues around recruitment.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
I'm with you Viv. I think there are certain players managers have "accepted" rather than pushed for, but I don't believe for a second managers don't get the final say. Warnock has basically admitted he signed off on Akpom.

Take Rhodes and Downing. They might not have been Karanka "picks" (although he spoke a lot about Rhodes, seems slightly bizarre if he didn't want him. The alternative is the club forcing him to say things, which given AK's stubbornness seems very unlikely) but no manager in the championship was going to turn those players down.

"Do you want a premier league quality AM who was picked for England 6 months ago?".

He's not going to say no is he? that's hardly forcing players on managers, although if those signings don't work out, they might feel they weren't their buys and try and distance themselves from the signing.
They were after Rhodes for two entire transfer windows, only getting him at the death of the second one. And, as I mentioned earlier, people do use his name constantly when talking about recruitment but take his contribution away and there is no automatic promotion. People are convinced Karanka didn't want him. In fact, you could even say that Karanka actually used him perfectly - he got six goals, made a huge difference, played his part, and the team achieved their target of promotion. Job done.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Traore was another example of a poor signing for the circumstances. We needed at least two experienced right side players going into the PL season, we sold Adomah and didn’t even bother to replace him.

We then had Traore, hardly played him and to top it all we had a buy out clause in his contract. This is the kind of poor planning from the club that drives me berserk, there’s no joined up thinking, no long term strategy or thought, it’s make it up as you go along.
I think we needed a right-sided player as well as Traore, I agree. Not to replace Adomah. But Karanka had Stuani, who he loved playing down the right, and replaced Adomah with Traore. He had Downing and Fischer who could play down the right as well. But one thing about that season that doesn't really get mentioned very often is that we appear to have gone into the campaign absolutely hell-bent on sticking to the 4-2-3-1 system. It was Karanka's nailed down shape. We signed players to fit into that. After a few dodgy results he changed it for the Arsenal game and it worked a treat. He then point-blank refused to play anything other than a 4-3-3/4-5-1(I think he may have slotted in an extra centre back at Manchester United when we lost 2-1), irrespective of opposition or available personnel or the state of a particular game at the time. Any deficiencies within the squad were exacerbated and compounded by a complete lack of flexibility from a tactical point of view.

With Traore, when he signed for us you'd have been hard pushed to find anyone who would've been against an £18m release clause in his contract. Or, maybe Traore and his agent wouldn't have signed without that deal being inserted in the first place? Who knows? Again, though, the club are criticised for it. And I don't believe for a single second that Boro get everything right because they don't, far from it. But they do get slaughtered for things that I just feel are a little more complex and nuanced than most of us would like to believe.
 
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go-nads!

Well-known member
That's rubbish. The managers have all had an input when it comes to signing players. They take credit for the decent ones and rightly should be slated for the failures.

The really poor managers look to place the blame elsewhere, I don't think that will be the case with Warnock, as much as I don't particularly rate his style of play.
Agree to disagree with you on this. Think there’s ample evidence to suggest otherwise. Even if what you say has merit, there is still a lack of forward planning in the club. PL transfer window, buy three players, sack the manager. Give a manager £50 million to spend on forwards when you already have three established forwards for the division then sack him within months and totally reverse the playing style with a different type of manager.

Until Gibson in particular starts to use joined up thinking, the club will continue to lurch around, any progress we make is short lived with no foundation in place. I include our current manager, with a limited shelf life and a dubious management record when it comes to establishing a side in the top division especially when you look at the style of play.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Forgot to give this a gentle nudge yesterday morning. It was interesting to see Akpom come on on Saturday. Well I think he came on, I mean, I saw him come on, but he seemed to disappear into thin air after that.

Christ knows what Warnock was doing with leaving him out and then bringing him back. I haven't changed my thought from the initial post on this thread - some of his 'techniques' are bizarre, to say the least.
 

atypical_boro

Well-known member
Forgot to give this a gentle nudge yesterday morning. It was interesting to see Akpom come on on Saturday. Well I think he came on, I mean, I saw him come on, but he seemed to disappear into thin air after that.

Christ knows what Warnock was doing with leaving him out and then bringing him back. I haven't changed my thought from the initial post on this thread - some of his 'techniques' are bizarre, to say the least.
We haven't had a manager in my lifetime whose 'techniques' haven't been questioned or labelled as bizarre, and I explicitly include Robson, McClaren and Karanka in that, even in successful times.
 

atypical_boro

Well-known member
Of course it's subjective. He has done better than Woodgate but it has been shocking for several months now. Not sure that can be denied.
We significantly outperformed against my expectations until December. Its not been great since, very up and down, but Warnock is as much to be praised for the first half of the season as he is criticised for the second. I try to look at the overall picture and I said top 10 would be fine this season, so it is. Had we continued our form to December right through we'd have been in the promotion mix now and I never imagined that was even possible this season, so I'm not going to move the goalposts.

He did stuff that could have been deemed 'bizarre' in the first half of the season too.
 
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