Archie Baptiste

Two different things can be true at once. Carrick clearly doesn't have an issue with developing young players but he's also not very good at identifying and developing young players who aren't obviously Premier league bound. Most managers can work with u21s who have the potential to be Premier league class like Hackney, Doak, Rav, Archer, Rogers and so on. Though it was Leo who gave Hackney his first run in the team rather than Wilder who was too busy sulking.

However most Championship teams aren't full of Premier league class u21s. One thing you need in the Championship are Championship class u21s like Izzy and Coburn. You will always have gaps in the squad and having them filled by u21s who probably won't make it in the Premier league but possibly could make it in the Championship is something Carrick failed with. And it wasn't just our own academy. He failed to develop Gilbert and Hamilton who may both still go on to be good Championship players. There's a period of initial development where you bring an U21 into the team in stages but Carrick really struggled with that.

The likes of McCabe and McCormick last season both *looked* like they could step up but they never got the chance to prove it which meant that when we really needed them, they weren't ready. Carrick seems to have realised he had a problem with this, which is why (at least according to him) we appointed Carrick Jr. I don't know how good our new coaching team is at doing this but we absolutely need 1 or 2 tier 2 U21s to come through each season. Some of them will splutter and fade away, some will go onto a good tier 2 career and the occasional one will click and end up in the top tier, even if only for a while.
 
I like the idea of picking up quality 19 year old free rejects from Premier League academies.

They usually have something to prove and want to get back to where they think they belong.

They usually have something to get to pay for Premier league under 19 side

Its not a big drop for them to come to say Rockcliffe

They are still developing both physically, mentally and emotionally.
 
Our youths are entering a competitive environment where at any moment your dreams and aspirations can (and probably will) be dashed. You need to be better than everyone around you. You have not "made it" by being in the U18s or the U21s and if the club brings someone in, you need to be better than them. It's a dog eat dog thing. It is not up to the head coach to "give you a chance" it is up to you to "earn the chance" and then "take that chance".

Sorry Roofie you are talking borrocks here lad.
 
r00fie1 said:
Rubbish.
Sooner spend millions on average players and "projects" than make a real effort to filter our academy lads into the team.
Leo introduced Hackney, and Warnock liked the look of Coburn.
So many others haven't been given the opportunity: Carrick, for instance, would sooner import clowns and has-beens, making a mockery of our academy. Seven academy players made a total of around twenty appearances last season. Most of those in the last few minutes of games. It's not just about "not [being] good enough", it's about the Manager's mentality and the clubs' willingness to hand out cash, rather than focusing on where our money has already been spent - on the academy. If we aren't producing the players - let's shut it down. With the likes of Edmundson, Whitaker and Barlaser - who needs an academy?
We've been trying to buy our way out of the Championship since 2009. Apart from the one season, where a rag tag of possibles and probables got us promoted, It's got us nowhere. Time to rewind. If we think paying the bills by selling the best players every season is a strategy for success.......lets see if we can make a Ferrari out of our Fiat Panda, to compete in the top flight. ;@))

UTMB!​
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What academy player is shirting Ayling when he first joined? We signed Dede from Celtic for the academy..not sure which gem we’ve been holding back there tbh.

Edmundson was brought in to make up the numbers.. Harley Hunt was brought in and given a chance.. ideal opportunity to stake his claim when we had no fir centre backs.. pretty sure Carrick & Woodgate would have jumped at the chance if he was ready.

Hamilton is still only 21.. and he still looks more like a midfielder than a winger. He wasn’t used much at Stockport.. but then again I think he took the place of an academy lad that didn’t make the cut.

Silvera was another one who took the place of a would be graduate that didn’t make the cut.. went on loan at Blackpool and I’d think at 24yo unless he has an amazing pre season he’ll be moved out and replaced.

Whittaker.. 19 goals and 5 assists last season.. he was only with us from January. Far too early to completely write him off!!
 
Counter_Press said:
Djed Spence … Tav … Coburn. There's about 30 million reasons why its not nonsense right there
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Spence last kicked a ball for us four years ago, Tav, three years ago and Josh, this summer. Are you telling me that's the sum of our success? There's a much longer list of failures, and that's down to a systemic problem and the "likes" of individual managers. When we bought the likes of Ashley Fletcher, Gestede, De Sart, Hoppe, Luongo, Payero, Boyd-Munce, are you sure we had no one any better or capable, of filling those shoes on less than half the salary, in our reserves?

If you do, then you are mistaken. The fact that some reserves move on, isn't always about their ability, but about the Manger and his staffs' ability to nurture and recognise existing talent.

I'll leave it there, and wait to see if Edwards goes beyond his choreographed answers in front of the camera, and shows he can recognise talent and bring on our youngsters.

UTMB!
 
r00fie1 said:
Spence last kicked a ball for us four years ago, Tav, three years ago and Josh, this summer. Are you telling me that's the sum of our success? There's a much longer list of failures, and that's down to a systemic problem and the "likes" of individual managers. When we bought the likes of Ashley Fletcher, Gestede, De Sart, Hoppe, Luongo, Payero, Boyd-Munce, are you sure we had no one any better or capable, of filling those shoes on less than half the salary, in our reserves?

If you do, then you are mistaken. The fact that some reserves move on, isn't always about their ability, but about the Manger and his staffs' ability to nurture and recognise existing talent.

I'll leave it there, and wait to see if Edwards goes beyond his choreographed answers in front of the camera, and shows he can recognise talent and bring on our youngsters.

UTMB!
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You're talking about something completely different. We're on about low risk signings that can potentially be very financially profitable. How is Gestede relevant to this conversation? I think you might be a bit confused.

If 20% of them end up being profitable and you make £30m out of it, then it has been an overwhelming success. That's the whole point
 
newyddion said:
What academy player is shirting Ayling when he first joined? We signed Dede from Celtic for the academy..not sure which gem we’ve been holding back there tbh.

Edmundson was brought in to make up the numbers.. Harley Hunt was brought in and given a chance.. ideal opportunity to stake his claim when we had no fir centre backs.. pretty sure Carrick & Woodgate would have jumped at the chance if he was ready.

Hamilton is still only 21.. and he still looks more like a midfielder than a winger. He wasn’t used much at Stockport.. but then again I think he took the place of an academy lad that didn’t make the cut.

Silvera was another one who took the place of a would be graduate that didn’t make the cut.. went on loan at Blackpool and I’d think at 24yo unless he has an amazing pre season he’ll be moved out and replaced.

Whittaker.. 19 goals and 5 assists last season.. he was only with us from January. Far too early to completely write him off!!
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I agree with some of your points, but this being "ready" really is emotive. What chance did Harley Hunt get? I bet most on here hadn't heard about him? Carrick and Woodgate were too risk-averse and preferred to stick with second rate players, like Edmundson and Iheanacho, both who were clearly no more than average at best. Carrick had young reserves on the bench, but rarely gave them more than a cameo appearance. What happened to our academy, when it produced players in a Boro shirt who played in Europe? Davis, Parnaby, Downing, McMahon, Morrison, Cattermole, Taylor, etc?
 
Counter_Press said:
You're talking about something completely different. We're on about low risk signings that can potentially be very financially profitable. How is Gestede relevant to this conversation? I think you might be a bit confused.

If 20% of them end up being profitable and you make £30m out of it, then it has been an overwhelming success. That's the whole point
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No. The point is we spend big money on average players, whilst we leave our reserves sat on the bench or waiting, and waiting, for the chance which never comes. That's the point. We have it ars about face. That is the point. We will leave it there and see.
 
r00fie1 said:
No. The point is we spend big money on average players, whilst we leave our reserves sat on the bench or waiting, and waiting, for the chance which never comes. That's the point. We have it ars about face. That is the point. We will leave it there and see.
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If they’re good enough then they will play, that’s usually how it goes. So many go in the proverbial bin because they aren’t good enough.

2000-2006 was a real purple patch for our academy also winning the FA youth cup.
 
r00fie1 said:
No. The point is we spend big money on average players, whilst we leave our reserves sat on the bench or waiting, and waiting, for the chance which never comes. That's the point. We have it ars about face. That is the point. We will leave it there and see.
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Do we spend big money on average players? This thread is about signing young players on a free with the hope of them breaking into the first team then ultimately making a big profit on them. Should our academy lads not be pushed and challenged by players coming in from elsewhere? Should we ignore potentially lucrative options of signing young, hungry players on a free who could still make a career in the game? Or should we just play Kenzie from Pally Park because he's local so he deserves his chance, then release him when he's not good enough?
 
AytonMews said:
it’s not nonsense at all though is it. If a local academy player is better than the academy players we are bringing in he’s got nothing to worry about.


If a local academy player isn’t getting a game or is released it’s because they’re not good enough
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Here’s another one.. if they are not progressing here.. then the responsible thing to do is release them and allow them to progress in a different environment.

Plenty of players have had the kick up the backside needed to get on it and working to best of their ability to salvage a career.

It happens in the senior squad too.
 
outoftown said:
Using the 30 Mill collective pair of Doak and Rav is an horrific example of " if they're good as good as them "
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Fact is.. that’s the game! If you’re good enough.. you’re good enough.. you can’t just go through the motions and expect a career to just happen.
 
Yeah I think we’ve been guilty of that in the past… keeping young lads until they are 22 year old and they’ve never played a minute of competitive football in their life!

When we release them they’re going to be miles behind young lads in league 2 who might have 50 - 100 games under their belt by then.

I think we only keep them so we have a decent sized squad for the academy league
 
r00fie1 said:
I agree with some of your points, but this being "ready" really is emotive. What chance did Harley Hunt get? I bet most on here hadn't heard about him? Carrick and Woodgate were too risk-averse and preferred to stick with second rate players, like Edmundson and Iheanacho, both who were clearly no more than average at best. Carrick had young reserves on the bench, but rarely gave them more than a cameo appearance. What happened to our academy, when it produced players in a Boro shirt who played in Europe? Davis, Parnaby, Downing, McMahon, Morrison, Cattermole, Taylor, etc?
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He’s still only 17.. he had 90 minuites in the cup against Stoke.. had a few run outs with the U21s.

We were only in Europe for two season.. so that is a big ask! I don’t think the U21 leagues were a thing back then either.. the reserve league were a much higher standard.

At 17 you can progress massively over a short period of time.. literally one summer you can go in a boy and come out a man.

He may well get a chance this season.. or he might go out on loan to get some invaluable experience.

We’ve got quite a few academy prospects looking to break out.. McCabe and Woolston being the most visible. Anton and Bailey Palmer are attracting attention from Man City. There’ll be others to that will have their chance to be concidered.

There’s no situation where the entire academy just gets unleashed on the championship and they hit the ground running. A few will get their chance and a few will make it. ‘The Golden Age’ didn’t all appear on the scene at the same time.. and even the much lauded ‘class of 92’ were backed by a lot of very experienced and talented players.

Don’t believe the hype.. don’t believe the myth.
 
r00fie1 said:
Spence last kicked a ball for us four years ago, Tav, three years ago and Josh, this summer. Are you telling me that's the sum of our success? There's a much longer list of failures, and that's down to a systemic problem and the "likes" of individual managers. When we bought the likes of Ashley Fletcher, Gestede, De Sart, Hoppe, Luongo, Payero, Boyd-Munce, are you sure we had no one any better or capable, of filling those shoes on less than half the salary, in our reserves?

If you do, then you are mistaken. The fact that some reserves move on, isn't always about their ability, but about the Manger and his staffs' ability to nurture and recognise existing talent.

I'll leave it there, and wait to see if Edwards goes beyond his choreographed answers in front of the camera, and shows he can recognise talent and bring on our youngsters.

UTMB!
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You asked for examples apart from Jones. You were given examples.
But haven't got the grace or decency to accept that fact.

There is always going to be more misses than hits from the academy.

You mentioned Sunderland as a team we should be emulating. Fair enough they brought through some of their own youths, but they also imported plenty from other academies. Including Bellingham.
 
Even by this board’s standards - the debate against this on this thread is making no sense at all. Signing this kid is a free hit and there’s nothing to lose. Some players develop later and some you win with, some you don’t. But let’s face it……the club has benefited massively by selling academy players (that we picked from other clubs) in the last five years. It would be foolish at best not to continue with that model.
 
Not sure you can be saying Coburn "came from another academy" mind. Didn't he join us at u15 level? That's year 10 at school and 2 to 3 years before he would be signing a pro deal. Not like Spence who was released as a scholar or pro.
 
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