Air India Flight to Gatwick crash - unconfirmed 242 on board

ForssAwakens said:
The report is ambiguous and has been criticised in being so, as it hasn’t attributed the error to human or mechanical failure.
Click to expand...
That's not unusual for a preliminary report. They often don't come to a definitive conclusion, because as the title states, it's only a preliminary report.

A preliminary report covers the who, what, where and when of an incident - it sticks to just the recorded facts. Conclusions and recommendations come as part of the final report, and it will take a year or more before they issue that.
 
madlad7773 said:
I think what's happened is the switches were on (you can't push back without them being on for taxiing plus its in a mandatory departure checklist to do) but there was an electrical issue on the take off run which has tripped the switches to off.
Click to expand...
That doesn't fit the timeline. The report gives a clear and unambiguous sequence of events. The whole take-off run went normally. The aircraft reached Vr (rotation) speed at 08:08:35 and transitioned to air mode at 08:08:39, indicating lift off. The fuel control switches were not moved to the cutoff position until 08:08:42, after the aircraft reached its maximum speed for the flight, of 180 knots.

So it didn't lose power on rotation - it lost power a full 7 seconds after rotation, when it was already airborne and (at that point) climbing as expected.

I think perhaps you need to read the report - many of the things you say just don't correspond to the known facts. For instance, the flaps shouldn't have been at 15. As the report says, they should have been at five (and were).

Also, as several former 787 pilots have mentioned in their analysis of this, the fuel control switches are purely mechanical, so an electrical fault could not cause them to change position.

I've mentioned this before, but the locking mechanism disengagement issue was only ever a potential problem, was only ever reported on 737's, has never actually occurred in flight in any model of aircraft and has never been observed as even a potential problem on 787's. Also, the report mentions that when the throttle control module that houses the fuel switches was changed in 2023 for unrelated reasons, no defects with the fuel control switches were seen.

There is no finding of any electrical power issues in the data from the Enhanced Airborne Flight Recorder (EAFR).

If an electrical problem had caused the switches to move (which pilots say is impossible) wouldn't it be more likely they would both have moved at the same time? And if they had moved by themselves, why did one pilot ask the other why he'd done the cut off?

As far as the report establishes, everything that occurred with this aircraft is consistent with a single thing, which is the moving of the fuel control switches one by one, with a one second delay in between, from the run to the cutoff position, just a few seconds after take-off.
 
I suppose the other thing that interests me is that on switching the engines off it took 1 second between, on switching them back on it was 4 seconds

I would like to understand that at some point.
In my mind it feels like someone had practiced switching them off efficiently
 
Soutra said:
This is entirely, utterly and completely speculation.

We shouldn't speculate about what happened, but if we are going to speculate then it would appear - overwhelmingly - that the captain turned off the fuel switches.
Click to expand...
The captain clearly has some sort of the mental breakdown or 'plan' before entering the cockpit and executed that plan - denied it to his 1st officer (who switched them back on immediately but it was too late) but looks like he was suicidal and happy to take everyone with him. Just watched Captain Steeve on Youtube (experienced pilot who does lots of informative piloting videos) who almost says the same - although he cannot speculate for obvious reasons.
 
Airsumaces1968 said:
The captain clearly has some sort of the mental breakdown or 'plan' before entering the cockpit and executed that plan - denied it to his 1st officer (who switched them back on immediately but it was too late) but looks like he was suicidal and happy to take everyone with him. Just watched Captain Steeve on Youtube (experienced pilot who does lots of informative piloting videos) who almost says the same - although he cannot speculate for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
The captain looks after his poorly father I believe and I’m sure that’ll be looked into to see if it played a part
 
ForssAwakens said:
Given the position of the switches I believe it would be highly unlikely
Click to expand...
Not necessarily given the way human memory works. It’s a moderately involved motor action that an experienced pilot will have performed repeatedly (albeit usually at the end of the flight). The motor skills necessary to perform such an action sit in the implicit memory. They don’t need conscious recall. You could simply perform the correct action while mistakenly doing the wrong thing.

Now that they are both buttons, I have on the odd occasion switched my car engine off when I intended to put the handbrake on. Only when stationary, so it didn’t really matter. But they are different motor actions and require me to use different hands. What I did was intentional in the broad sense but not consciously deliberate in the narrow sense. Notably, I don’t recall ever doing this when one required you to turn a key and the other required you to push a release button and yank on a lever.
 
Seems like when people offer opinions or reasons, there's a bit of rush by some to pick holes. It's an opinion. No one actually knows yet. I can only tell you what my experience tells me. I also have read the report. I just don't get why people are so hostile. No need really.
 
morrissey said:
I don't have a scooby about all this, but am thoroughly engrossed reading the technical knowledge and theories from a multitude of posters - let's not descend to critical, barbed comments...the actual reason(s) are as yet, unknown.
Keep posting fellas, absorbing stuff.
Click to expand...
This, there is some really good insight coming into this thread, I don't. have the experience or knowledge to contest any of it but either way right or wrong the Information on here is at a more detailed level more than the media sources I would look at and I find it fascinating,
 
ForssAwakens said:
I suppose the other thing that interests me is that on switching the engines off it took 1 second between, on switching them back on it was 4 seconds

I would like to understand that at some point.
In my mind it feels like someone had practiced switching them off efficiently
Click to expand...
Happens in sequence, as far as I know. I genuinely don't think it's crew error in that it was deliberate by either of them. The First officer was flying the departure with checks by the captain, so standard take off roll, 80kts check, V1 rotate,V2, positive climb,gear up. All should have been done,with the aircraft clean by around 650ft latest. The fact the Ram air turbine deployed shows a power fail. The engines must have provided enough thrust to take off and so if deliberate, then one of them would have had to disguise them moving the control switch which isn't easy to mask. I genuinely think this is either,in my humble opinion, maintenance thing with the airline or more likely, an issue with the part itself, linked to both B737s and B787s. Time will tell but remember folks...JUST MY OPINION...
 
madlad7773 said:
I genuinely think this is either,in my humble opinion, maintenance thing with the airline or more likely, an issue with the part itself, linked to both B737s and B787s. Time will tell but remember folks...JUST MY OPINION...
Click to expand...
The fuel control switch locking mechanism installation issue is not something that has ever been linked to 787's.

It has only ever been reported as happening with 737's.

It was mentioned as a theoretical, potential concern with several other Boeing models, including the 787 but has never been directly linked to, or observed in, any of these other models.

All the evidence we have so far, points to the fuel control switches having been moved to the cutoff position by one of the pilots.

The other pilot even asks him why he did it. If the switches had moved by themselves, he would surely have asked something like, "How did that happen?" or "What's going on?" not, "Why did you do that?"
 
Last edited:
madlad7773 said:
Happens in sequence, as far as I know. I genuinely don't think it's crew error in that it was deliberate by either of them. The First officer was flying the departure with checks by the captain, so standard take off roll, 80kts check, V1 rotate,V2, positive climb,gear up. All should have been done,with the aircraft clean by around 650ft latest. The fact the Ram air turbine deployed shows a power fail. The engines must have provided enough thrust to take off and so if deliberate, then one of them would have had to disguise them moving the control switch which isn't easy to mask. I genuinely think this is either,in my humble opinion, maintenance thing with the airline or more likely, an issue with the part itself, linked to both B737s and B787s. Time will tell but remember folks...JUST MY OPINION...
Click to expand...
I think this is plausible from what I've read.

To add to this, I think it's been reported that the captain had his hand on the throttle level, as the FO had control for the take off.

That would make it difficult for either to turn off the control switches undetected, deliberate or otherwise.
 
Liamo said:
All the evidence we have so far, points to the fuel control switches having been moved to the cutoff position by one of the pilots.

The other pilot even asks him why he did it. If the switches had moved by themselves, he would surely have asked something like, "How did that happen?" or "What's going on?" not, "Why did you do that?"
Click to expand...

Good point

Taking it a bit further, did the pilot ask 'Why did you do that?' in an angry or agitated manner, knowing the implications, or was it more benign?

It would be very helpful to hear ALL of what was said, I am sure there was LOT more than just the two sentences we've been provided with.
 
Liamo said:
The fuel control switch locking mechanism installation issue is not something that has ever been linked to 787's.

It has only ever been reported as happening with 737's.

It was mentioned as a theoretical, potential concern with several other Boeing models, including the 787 but has never been directly linked to, or observed in, any of these other models.

All the evidence we have so far, points to the fuel control switches having been moved to the cutoff position by one of the pilots.

The other pilot even asks him why he did it. If the switches had moved by themselves, he would surely have asked something like, "How did that happen?" or "What's going on?" not, "Why did you do that?"
Click to expand...
Does not some form of visual or audible alarm activate if there is no fuel to the engines?

I know nothing about aviation in any way but it does seem common sense it would.
 
red_harrington said:
Good point

Taking it a bit further, did the pilot ask 'Why did you do that?' in an angry or agitated manner, knowing the implications, or was it more benign?

It would be very helpful to hear ALL of what was said, I am sure there was LOT more than just the two sentences we've been provided with.
Click to expand...
It’s also eliminates the likelihood of the point of the switches moving themselves as you wouldn’t directly ask someone why they did it, you would immediately troubleshoot
 
Last edited:
Liamo said:
The fuel control switch locking mechanism installation issue is not something that has ever been linked to 787's.

It has only ever been reported as happening with 737's.

It was mentioned as a theoretical, potential concern with several other Boeing models, including the 787 but has never been directly linked to, or observed in, any of these other models.

All the evidence we have so far, points to the fuel control switches having been moved to the cutoff position by one of the pilots.

The other pilot even asks him why he did it. If the switches had moved by themselves, he would surely have asked something like, "How did that happen?" or "What's going on?" not, "Why did you do that?"
Click to expand...
Neither pilot said they touched them
 
Here's something that occurs to me, in relation to the crash.

The Indian Air Accident Investigation Bureau's investigators were aware of the potential for a problem with the fuel control switch locking mechanism - they made specific mention of it in their report. So it is absolutely inconceivable to me that they would not have checked for this issue on the part from the downed aircraft.

We know that the fuel control switch module was basically undamaged because there's a photo of it in the report. It is smoke-blackened but otherwise completely intact. So it would have been easy to ascertain if the switch was installed correctly or not.

Having done that, and if they had discovered that it was incorrectly installed, it would be unconscionable for them not to have issued an immediate request for all Air India's relevant Boeing models to be checked for this issue, and to pass the information on to the relevant international air safety organisations, to be disseminated worldwide, as a matter of urgent concern.

However we know that the investigators said that no remedial action needed to be taken on Air India aircraft and no immediate safety concern was flagged up to international authorities, so I think we can be fairly confident that they discovered nothing amiss with installation of the fuel control switches.

The FAA also issued a statement to more or less this effect.

FAA Interim Report Finds No Immediate Safety Issues with Boeing 787-8 in Air India Crash

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has communicated to international aviation authorities that its interim review of the Air India Boeing 787-8 crash on June 12 revealed no immediate safety concerns related to the aircraft’s engines or systems.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top