Academy Players
- Thread starter Block21
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There isn't one. I think the current crop of academy players are all struggling, and have been for years. We finished 16th in the league last season.
The pathway between academy and the championship is too unrealistic.
Watford have just pulled out of the U21 league to find a "smoother and more realistic pathway to first-team football", and I think we should do the same.
The closest are probably:
1. Law McCabe - had a bad loan spell at Plymouth in L1 but has the most professional experience at the highest level in the academy.
2. Jayden Carbon - was on loan in the Scottish Championship last season - didn't do very well - but it's a level above the NL and possibly L2 in my opinion.
3. Cruz Ibeh - "the next big thing" and still only 17 - but we need to start giving these young players professional minutes earlier - I'd send him to Hartlepool for 6 months.
The majority of our players who have been released from the academy over the past 5 - 6 years have all ended up in step 7.
Most don't make it in step 6 (National League North/South) and end up part-time footballers by the age of 24-25.
I think we only have 3 or 4 over the past 5 years who have made a career for themselves (elsewhere) above L2 - Rumarm Burrell, Isiah Jones, Kamil Conteh.
We only had 3 players on loan in step 5 (National League) last season...
Shea Conner played 1 game in goal for Gateshead
Rio Patterson-Powell was only given 19 minutes at Gateshead.
Archie Baptiste was loaned out to Rochdale and didn't make it off the bench.
We're also keeping hold of these players for too long in my opinion.
We released Agyemang last summer after signing him from Man City U21 - He's just been released from Morecambe in NLN.
If he's 22 and can't make it in NLN - Why was he still in the Boro academy at 21?
Same applies to Jack Hannah and Jack Scott - currently 22/23 years old and in Scottish Tier 3.
The pathway between academy and the championship is too unrealistic.
Watford have just pulled out of the U21 league to find a "smoother and more realistic pathway to first-team football", and I think we should do the same.
The closest are probably:
1. Law McCabe - had a bad loan spell at Plymouth in L1 but has the most professional experience at the highest level in the academy.
2. Jayden Carbon - was on loan in the Scottish Championship last season - didn't do very well - but it's a level above the NL and possibly L2 in my opinion.
3. Cruz Ibeh - "the next big thing" and still only 17 - but we need to start giving these young players professional minutes earlier - I'd send him to Hartlepool for 6 months.
The majority of our players who have been released from the academy over the past 5 - 6 years have all ended up in step 7.
Most don't make it in step 6 (National League North/South) and end up part-time footballers by the age of 24-25.
I think we only have 3 or 4 over the past 5 years who have made a career for themselves (elsewhere) above L2 - Rumarm Burrell, Isiah Jones, Kamil Conteh.
We only had 3 players on loan in step 5 (National League) last season...
Shea Conner played 1 game in goal for Gateshead
Rio Patterson-Powell was only given 19 minutes at Gateshead.
Archie Baptiste was loaned out to Rochdale and didn't make it off the bench.
We're also keeping hold of these players for too long in my opinion.
We released Agyemang last summer after signing him from Man City U21 - He's just been released from Morecambe in NLN.
If he's 22 and can't make it in NLN - Why was he still in the Boro academy at 21?
Same applies to Jack Hannah and Jack Scott - currently 22/23 years old and in Scottish Tier 3.
Block21
Well-known member
We must have hopes for Ibeh to have him around the first team, I think a loan to Hartlepool is a great shout. I read an article with Lee Clark their new manager saying they want to get that relationship with Boro going again so a loan for Ibeh could make perfect sense.
I enjoyed Baptistes brief cameo in Hellbergs first game when he came on against Derby, but centre back is a strong area for us. Maybe another who could do with a loan, or if we can get rid of Edmundson he could become 5th choice.
But yeah, pretty grim then eh. Shame really
BoroPhil
Well-known member
Others to mention are
Harley Hunt - still only 18 (19 in August) - was playing L2 football at 16. Had a long injury lay off so hopefully no long-term effects.
Isaac Greenup - again, only 18. Was on the bench under Carrick but mainly played u18 football this season (some u21 appearances).
Hinneh Listowel - Ghanaian signed last season - haven't seen much of him yet but played a few times for the u21s (and u18s) after signing.
Fin Cartwright - 19 now, and amazingly 3 years since his first team debut (and last appearance). Only made 12 u21 appearances last season so injuries maybe a factor.
Totally agree with above though that we need to get more loans for our young players - I assume we try to.
Luke Woolston is 22 in November and still has a year on his contract.
Only Hunt and maybe McCabe and Ibeh have a chance of being involved next season imo. Could argue all 3 would benefit from a long loan somewhere.
Harley Hunt - still only 18 (19 in August) - was playing L2 football at 16. Had a long injury lay off so hopefully no long-term effects.
Isaac Greenup - again, only 18. Was on the bench under Carrick but mainly played u18 football this season (some u21 appearances).
Hinneh Listowel - Ghanaian signed last season - haven't seen much of him yet but played a few times for the u21s (and u18s) after signing.
Fin Cartwright - 19 now, and amazingly 3 years since his first team debut (and last appearance). Only made 12 u21 appearances last season so injuries maybe a factor.
Totally agree with above though that we need to get more loans for our young players - I assume we try to.
Luke Woolston is 22 in November and still has a year on his contract.
Only Hunt and maybe McCabe and Ibeh have a chance of being involved next season imo. Could argue all 3 would benefit from a long loan somewhere.
We do have hopes - but the pathway from academy to pro football is too vast, and when we keep hold of these type of players without them getting any game time, it slows their development.
When they hit 21-22 years old they need a squad number to play, and higher level teams don't want to take the risk, so they end up stuck in lower leagues.
We had similar hopes for Cal Kavanagh a couple of seasons ago - Carrick gave him 3 cameo appearances - He lost his place in the Oldham squad in L2 towards the back end of last season.
Sonny Finch was another higher profile academy player - Wilder gave him his debut and he featured 5 times for Carrick - He's now doing okay for South Shields but it's 4 leagues below us.
Another striker we had hopes for was Daniel Nkrumah - He was on the bench 6 times under Carrick - Just been released from Worthing in NLS at 22 years old.
I'd personally like to see us drop out of the U21 league and setup a B team like Watford are doing next season.
Block21
Well-known member
The positive with Ibeh is he's only 17/18 and in and around it, so with a loan or 2 there's time for him to reach the level.
I'm not sure what the answer is in regards to bridging the gap but your idea could be a solution.
I think Brentford do something similar
I think (pure opinion) that the change from having reserves to a purely U21 league has massively affected the development of academy players. It means that players aren't playing against adults until they are too old and they aren't getting the physical development. It's such a huge step-up to go from playing against kids to plying against adults.
Also, the fact that it is allowed for certain super-academies to horde players means that all the top talent is in a handful of places. Those top academies are only developing a handful of top level players and instead are the ones developing all the EFL level players so the rest of the teams further down the pyramid are only able to produce mainly non-league level players. Globalisation doesn't help either because as a league we import players to fill squads from all over the world means that the opportunity for young players starts much further down the pyramid. Football youth development would be way better if the young players were spread out more and getting chances in first teams like ours instead of us having to loan/buy them from Man City. Players like Micah Hamilton we had to spend good money on but he has never been tested at our level. It's a huge risk.
Also, the fact that it is allowed for certain super-academies to horde players means that all the top talent is in a handful of places. Those top academies are only developing a handful of top level players and instead are the ones developing all the EFL level players so the rest of the teams further down the pyramid are only able to produce mainly non-league level players. Globalisation doesn't help either because as a league we import players to fill squads from all over the world means that the opportunity for young players starts much further down the pyramid. Football youth development would be way better if the young players were spread out more and getting chances in first teams like ours instead of us having to loan/buy them from Man City. Players like Micah Hamilton we had to spend good money on but he has never been tested at our level. It's a huge risk.
BigAl76
Well-known member
I think sometimes people dont appreciate how difficult it is to make the jump from being an excellent and promising youngster, to 'making it' in the professional game. Especially at the level we are operating at.
Bringing a lad through the ranks to perform at a consistent level in the championship - one of the best and toughest leagues in world football is extremely rare.
Coincidentally, Junior Smoggy was at a trial for Stockton District at the weekend at U11 age. Some of the lads playing were of an extremely high level, with a fair few already playing for acadamys. I would be suprised if ANY of them eventually made the grade at championship level.
The Hayden Hackneys, David Wheaters, Stuart Downings of the world are exceptions. I'm not saying we wont ever unearth another one of those talents though.
Developing youngsters is an admirable ethos and you could argue that it pays for itself when a HH comes along, but these are generational talents rather than a production line of excellence.
Bringing a lad through the ranks to perform at a consistent level in the championship - one of the best and toughest leagues in world football is extremely rare.
Coincidentally, Junior Smoggy was at a trial for Stockton District at the weekend at U11 age. Some of the lads playing were of an extremely high level, with a fair few already playing for acadamys. I would be suprised if ANY of them eventually made the grade at championship level.
The Hayden Hackneys, David Wheaters, Stuart Downings of the world are exceptions. I'm not saying we wont ever unearth another one of those talents though.
Developing youngsters is an admirable ethos and you could argue that it pays for itself when a HH comes along, but these are generational talents rather than a production line of excellence.
MickaelDebevePhenomenal
Well-known member
The sad reality of the academy sides at all ages, is the majority of them are there to help the ones who can make it transition easier. So in the example you used, Agyemang will have been a cheap option to fill out the u21 squad so that the players we do think can come through, have some relative experience and quality around them. You also need numbers to keep the level of training at a acceptable level.
There will be lads in the system now who are 17-20 that we know aren't going to make it, but we need relative sized squads to help those like Ibeh that we think can.
Brentford are the only team to do it full time, but there are a few other teams who move in and out of the U21 league...
Forest, Southampton, Swansea and Derby have all had "B teams" over the last few years.
The reason those teams come back into the league is funding, and there are rules about "youth players" in competitions that playing for a B team without playing for a U21 wouldn't qualify a player for.
With our recruitment in London and now stretching as far as Africa (Hinneh Listowel) for the youth team - I think it's a genuine next step.
I'd be looking into the best 20-22 year olds from the lower leagues (Kahrel Reddin from Altringham is currently the best in my opinion)...
... And poaching the best under 19 local players (Callum Bone at Gateshead, Hayden Atkinson at Carlisle) to create something more competitive with a more realistic pathway.
These type of signings cost 100-200k with future add-ons - We can afford to spend £1 million and buy 10 of them. We have all the facilities to accommodate 2 teams.
That's part of the problem though, it slows the development of that one player who can genuinely make it at championship level - if they're playing with/against players of step 6/7 level every week.
10 poor players don't improve the 1 good player, it's more likely that the 1 good player is brought closer to the poor players level, which is what we see happening every season.
MickaelDebevePhenomenal
Well-known member
I think this is a wider football problem, not just at Boro. The loan system now, which requires loans to be season, or half season long, means managers have to make a big commitment to lads who haven't played any senior football. Gone are the month to month or 3 month loan deals.
Also with the short termism in football, and especially the effect it has on livelihoods the further you go down the league, if you were a league two manager, would you gamble on a 19 year old with zero first team minutes, or a 28 year old, with 200 league two appearances under his belt?
Hicktonpen10
Well-known member
Always find this a fascinating topic. Agree that the leap from academy to championship is unrealistic save for the odd generational talent. The contracts seem excessively long unless there is some rule around this. Bizarre that Woolston has another year left.
MickaelDebevePhenomenal
Well-known member
But the solution to that problem is "having better players". There is no silver bullet solution to that problem.
We've just lost the Palmer twins, we lost a Phenomenal GK talent in the younger age groups before he'd even signed his scholarship, and we've recently lost a lad to another top academy prospect who isn't even yet a teenager. The system is rigged towards the top clubs, our current rate of the players we are producing is nothing short of superb given the industry constraints. Bryn, Fry and Hackney in the first team. With Coburn and Tav sold for good money recently.
viv_andersons_nana
Well-known member
Same as Bridge who went to Norwich. I don’t think he’s played for the senior team yet either.
The one caveat is though that you never know how a player is going to deal with the step up. It’s known that David Wheater was not expected to break into the seniors let alone nail a starting place and get near the full England squad, but an injury crisis meant he was thrown in and he took his chance.
If Wilder hadn’t been sacked then would Hackney have come through and become a £20m footballer? Possibly not.
Sometimes young players can surprise you. I think our pathway tends to stop at the subs’ bench tbh. We have a few that have been close for a while but not broke through. Though it’s worth wondering how many other clubs in our league have 3-4 academy players in their matchday squad every week like we do (in fact it’s 3 in the team and one on the bench).
Chappy112
Well-known member
Compare it to other clubs, I think we hold up pretty well against similar clubs?
Even just comparing against Sunderland and Newcastle we're doing fine.
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We had 4 academy products in the squad for the playoff final. People expect too much I think.
Even just comparing against Sunderland and Newcastle we're doing fine.
Middlesbrough FC - Former academy players
This statistic show the development of former academy players of the club Middlesbrough.
Sunderland AFC - Former academy players
This statistic show the development of former academy players of the club Sunderland.
Newcastle United - Former academy players
This statistic show the development of former academy players of the club Newcastle.
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We had 4 academy products in the squad for the playoff final. People expect too much I think.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Yeah, exatly, it's probably like jumping up about 3 or 4 divisions, and a different world of physical strength. The champo is the 7th strongest league in the world, and we're near the top of it, trying to get into the strongest league in the world.
This is why I don't get why people are always like "give x a run out" or "give y a run out", in critical games, as they scored a couple of goals or showed a little skill.
It would be like giving a player from the conference a run out, the chance of that working and the player being anywhere near good enough are very slim. They need to be standing out by an absolute mile at their level, within our U-21 side, I think, not just slightly better than the rest.
Every now and then we will get one, but it's very rare, and even rarer these days when the bigger Cat 1 academies hoover up all the talent.
I don't think we're getting a great deal out of our Cat 1 academy now though, seems like we're getting more "average" level players (from the Academy, which won't cut it), where it would probably be more beneficial to have a few elites and the rest below average.
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I agree the system is rigged towards the top clubs - but I don't agree that we're doing superbly well - Fry graduated from our academy 11 years ago and he's still being used as an example of success.
Most clubs our level have produced 2 or 3 players in the past 10 years - we're doing averagely at best, and without Hackney we'd be way below average over the last 5 years.
Went down an AJ Bridge google rabbit hole
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