45% DROP IN BRITISH ACTS BOOKED FOR EUROPEAN FESTIVALS POST-BREXIT

Out of interest what is the fee range for a professional band paying an European Festival?
I was never paid £500 to play a gig in Europe and that was for a band not an individual. Festival headliners are surely the only ones that could be viable now. So how will UK acts ever hope to climb that ladder.
We should stress there are no new opportunities opening up as a result of Brexit for bands and musicians. Less European and American bands touring in this country doesn't open up opportunities for UK acts rather it diminishes them because it lessens the glamour gigs, it reduces audiences and venues further.
Talking to bands this is a LOSE LOSE scenario. There are no gains whatsoever.
 
I was never paid £500 to play a gig in Europe and that was for a band not an individual. Festival headliners are surely the only ones that could be viable now. So how will UK acts ever hope to climb that ladder.
We should stress there are no new opportunities opening up as a result of Brexit for bands and musicians. Less European and American bands touring in this country doesn't open up opportunities for UK acts rather it diminishes them because it lessens the glamour gigs, it reduces audiences and venues further.
Talking to bands this is a LOSE LOSE scenario. There are no gains whatsoever.

Also, apart from the Carnet costs. Ask your Euro agent about some of the VAT problems on merchandise.
Bands top up gig fees by selling these at gigs. Albums, T Shirts and stuff. Helps with transport costs for bands touring.
 
Well, both of the prospective leaders are trying to out-Brexit each other so I think it's fairly safe to say that Brexiters and Brexit itself controls the party.

Your assumption that a Conservative Remain MP will not divulge his vote supports that, rather than anything else.

The 'Remainers' have mainly gone or have 'changed their minds'.
UM

Many keep a lower profile.

From the formation of the EU in 1993? to 2016 the Conservativies were a remain party, as said things can and will probably change over time. Presently even the Labour Party is not campaigning to rejoin either the SEM or EU. I expect changes in the future. As I have said before leaving the SEM was not clever imo. I am a free trader by nature, unless the system is being obviously manipulated. I have my doubts in the music bands example all the paperwork is really needed* and an element of it being used to create non tariff barriers.

* I understand the bands have to do it, but I am looking the levels above, those in public office who make the rules.

I would accept the majority of the Conservative Party at present want to follow through on the UK Parliamentary Leave vote.... until the next General Election.
 
UM

Many keep a lower profile.

From the formation of the EU in 1993? to 2016 the Conservativies were a remain party, as said things can and will probably change over time. Presently even the Labour Party is not campaigning to rejoin either the SEM or EU. I expect changes in the future. As I have said before leaving the SEM was not clever imo. I am a free trader by nature, unless the system is being obviously manipulated. I have my doubts in the music bands example all the paperwork is really needed* and an element of it being used to create non tariff barriers.

* I understand the bands have to do it, but I am looking the levels above, those in public office who make the rules.

I would accept the majority of the Conservative Party at present want to follow through on the UK Parliamentary Leave vote.... until the next General Election.
Of course the paperwork is not really needed, but the UK chose to have it enforced.
 
I was never paid £500 to play a gig in Europe and that was for a band not an individual. Festival headliners are surely the only ones that could be viable now. So how will UK acts ever hope to climb that ladder.
We should stress there are no new opportunities opening up as a result of Brexit for bands and musicians. Less European and American bands touring in this country doesn't open up opportunities for UK acts rather it diminishes them because it lessens the glamour gigs, it reduces audiences and venues further.
Talking to bands this is a LOSE LOSE scenario. There are no gains whatsoever.
Cheers for the infromation - obviously on your former scale/level its not worth paying £500 for the paperwork. unless the same paperwork could be used many times over in year.

Music is more poorly paid that I would have guessed. I could have got around £150 for a full days supply teaching which is more than each band member would get for a performance (assuming 4 in a band). A band needs to get to gig and from what is said on here bring nearly all their own equipment.
 
UM

Many keep a lower profile.

From the formation of the EU in 1993? to 2016 the Conservativies were a remain party, as said things can and will probably change over time. Presently even the Labour Party is not campaigning to rejoin either the SEM or EU. I expect changes in the future. As I have said before leaving the SEM was not clever imo. I am a free trader by nature, unless the system is being obviously manipulated. I have my doubts in the music bands example all the paperwork is really needed* and an element of it being used to create non tariff barriers.

* I understand the bands have to do it, but I am looking the levels above, those in public office who make the rules.

I would accept the majority of the Conservative Party at present want to follow through on the UK Parliamentary Leave vote.... until the next General Election.

No, they've talked themselves into it as they won't recognise any trade offs that come with leaving. They convinced their own base so much with their lies that they now can't turn around without harming themselves in that base's eyes.

Even something as simple as accepting that taking longer to cross a border is inevitable due to more checks being made at the border (for goods and people). I think most Brexit supporters would accept this. Maybe they'd complain but they've been convinced that either isn't happening, is the same as before (although maybe not as bonkers), or is the fault of people on the 'other side'.

One of the ironies of this is that some of the Leave campaigners always complain that Remainers think Leave voters are stupid. That may be true in some cases, in both terms, but the main perpetrators of this are the politicians who seek to convince the public but especially their Leave supporting fans that not only doesn't anything need mitigating, there are numerous opportunities out there that wouldn't have previously been available. They know they're lying but they think people are stupid. Maybe that's the job of a politician, to be the best liar. That applies to both main parties by the way.
 
Will ask this again

If the problem is FOM and leave voters don’t care about anything else shouldn’t the UK just rejoin the Custom Union which will help with this and other issues.

Most people are not listening Kosovo - read a lot of the posts on here there is a lot of its the end of the world as we know it quite a few posters seem to glory in the negativity. Half the UK population appear to be branded Hard Brexiters/UKIP style supporters.

It could be same at Government levels too with no one interested in changing or modifying what they do.

Maybe in a few years time Ice Station Zebra will start to thaw.

It's a good question and between about Sep 2016 to Dec 2019 I was so well informed on these EU/Brexit matters I was even getting Professors of EU Law, current/former EU officials and Trade Experts who were giving advice to Parliamentary Committees piling in to back me up on Twitter with evidence and legislation they could immediately cite, if I was one of the first to take various prominent Brexit figures to task on some nonsense or other they were now spouting. It's funny how you lose knowledge when you're not actively employing it anymore, which has happened to me once Boris won the 2019 election and the fight to stop Brexit, or at least leaving the Single Market, was effectively over. I don't have the detailed knowledge specific to the music industry, nor the I think very limited measures that have belatedly been brought in to help a little.

I'll give it a general go though, see if some things start to come back to me as I talk this through (for myself as much as anyone else).

What a Customs Union primarily does is create a common external tariff barrier for goods. Inside a Customs Union, goods can travel across it's members borders without having to stop and pay tariffs [ useful reminder; tariffs are a levy usually designed to protect a domestic industry from foreign ones undermining it ]. It does not mean that there is no documentation required. Advance declarations, transport documents, invoices are all still required. It does not mean it is friction-less in another very important way. A Customs Union is only about tariffs, it does not address standards. That was taken care of by the Single Market. So goods imported from a third country are stopped at the port of entry of the Member State of a Customs Union, where appropriate agreed tariffs are levied and paid by the importer. Thereafter these goods are allowed to circulate freely within that member state, however they may not be able to circulate freely across the border to any other member state of a Customs Union because each member state might have different standards on products. The EU created their Internal Single Market so that all standards, once agreed between the member states and various interest groups within the EU eg Trade unions, consumer rights groups, health and safety bodies, environmentalists, businesses etc. were uniform. So standards are also checked at the external border when it comes to the EU. Thereafter, other than the usual random spot checks and security checks, it was free friction-less movement of goods across the EU 28.

It is worth appreciating just why this is. The EU tries to present a level playing field within it. Within the Single Market therefore, the various EU members and interest groups have agreed some minimum standards and rights for workers, for consumers, for the environment and for health and safety. Meeting those standards has costs for business. Not meeting them means savings which in turn would mean, all things being equal, businesses outside that level playing field Single Market can undercut those within it. The EU is said to be protectionist. Well they are not internally, but externally they are because they will not allow their own businesses of their own members to be unfairly undercut. So, there are external tariffs, though they are generally much lower than the rest of the world and they make exceptions, such as zero tariffs for everything (but arms) that are supplied by the worlds 49 poorest countries, or South African oranges outside the main Spanish orange growing season. In total the EU had 70 Free Trade Agreements around the world when we voted for Brexit. Even some of the tariffs were on the Entry Price System threshold, which were hardly ever triggered as prices didn't drop that far.

The Customs Union solves tariffs on goods. There are no tariffs on services, so a Customs Union on it's own is irrelevant for services. It does not solve standards on goods either. So an electrical product from China, imported to the UK might not meet EU standards. This is important because we have been making considerable noises since we left, in fact it was a big part of the rhetoric of the leave campaign, that we would take back control, not be subject to Brussels rules and we would diverge from the supposedly onerous EU standards and red tape. We then signed deals with Australia and have signed Memorandum of Understandings (technically worthless but never the less indicators of intent) with a US State. We've told the EU we don't want to stick to your standards. So the EU are forced, by their own huge, detailed, carefully constructed rule book, which has implications on all their other international agreements too, to impose those standards and checks on us, a now third country. This is particularly true for sanitary and phytosanitary checks, because of the public health risks, less so for the products the music industry will have with them, although if I remember correctly there are particularly high standards on electrical goods too. Never the less, it's all paperwork, all queues.

So, let's have a think. When a band goes on tour, what does it have with it? It is going for work purposes, so each member state has its own visa requirements for third country visitors. It is bringing quite a lot of equipment. What will the border officials have to consider? Is the band selling it or using it? Is it of a standard that is compatible with EU regulations? Is it pretending to be a band, but really just trying to smuggle in some premium goods that it can avoid tariffs on by selling on the sly? Let's count them in and count them out, shall we? What are all these t-shirts, badges, tea towels, CD's and vinyl products? What, you need to sell them as merchandise to help fund the band and the tour and also because the fans demand them in the moment? So you are selling goods, not just services? Is there VAT to account for on them? Tariffs? These things are largely made in China, do they conform?

There are some points I've missed that are worth thinking about. I can't be bothered inserting them back in the appropriate paragraphs so I'll just list them here.

There are, or were in 2016, 16 customs unions notified at the WTO. The EU one is I think the only one to cover ALL goods. MERCOSUR, the South American one doesn't cover things like Sugar and Vehicles for instance.
The Turkey EU one doesn't cover agricultural goods, or coal and steel. So you can have partial customs unions.
Instead of a Customs Union, Free Trade Agreements are doable, which can remove tariffs and other restrictions on goods.
The problem with an FTA is companies then have to comply with the very complex ROO (Rules Of Origin) to show the products components were 50%+ from countries who are party to the FTA.
The problem with a Customs Union is it automatically limits the sovereignty of a country on doing its own Trade Agreements, as it is has no leeway to negotiate on tariffs. If the EU negotiates new tariffs, Turkey has to go along with that and perhaps renegotiate its other agreements, or choose to leave the EU one.
Turkey's other problem is it's agreement doesn't cover transport services, hence the Turkey-Bulgaria border routinely suffers 10 mile tailbacks.
You can't have your cake and eat it.
Barriers to trade increase costs of trade.
We trade most with countries nearest us. That is true all over the world and throughout history. The gravity model of trade is the one thing economists can hang their hat on as much as biologists can hang their hat on Darwin's Theory of Evolution.
The EU tries to ensure suppliers in developing countries factories meet EU safety standards and pay decent wages. They do inspections, but this is limited by resource. Never the less it is a noble aspiration that does usually raise standards in a factory and these places become much sought after places of work with highly motivated workers and productivity usually.
The EU does sometimes use underhand tactics and its clout, by insisting on regulation and standards that are effectively too high a barrier to trade for some third country suppliers to meet. It is protectionist. Is that an argument to leave it on a point of principle, or an argument not to leave (and put your self at the wrong end of that), while working to change it from the inside?

It's complex isn't it? And there isn't a sector of the economy that isn't affected.

It is important to understand that it is the combination of the EU Customs Union AND the EU Single Market together that allows friction-less movement of goods (and Services and Labour) within the EU. The further you move away from this, the more costs, barriers, friction, paperwork, delays, complexity there is.

Lastly, the EU is flexible - remember the Barnier steps? - so I've shown below the various options the EU has been happy to partner with, but honestly, we should be right at the very heart of it.



FYmuVy6XkAMXJH9.jpg
 
It's a good question and between about Sep 2016 to Dec 2019 I was so well informed on these EU/Brexit matters I was even getting Professors of EU Law, current/former EU officials and Trade Experts who were giving advice to Parliamentary Committees piling in to back me up on Twitter with evidence and legislation they could immediately cite, if I was one of the first to take various prominent Brexit figures to task on some nonsense or other they were now spouting. It's funny how you lose knowledge when you're not actively employing it anymore, which has happened to me once Boris won the 2019 election and the fight to stop Brexit, or at least leaving the Single Market, was effectively over. I don't have the detailed knowledge specific to the music industry, nor the I think very limited measures that have belatedly been brought in to help a little.

I'll give it a general go though, see if some things start to come back to me as I talk this through (for myself as much as anyone else).

What a Customs Union primarily does is create a common external tariff barrier for goods. Inside a Customs Union, goods can travel across it's members borders without having to stop and pay tariffs [ useful reminder; tariffs are a levy usually designed to protect a domestic industry from foreign ones undermining it ]. It does not mean that there is no documentation required. Advance declarations, transport documents, invoices are all still required. It does not mean it is friction-less in another very important way. A Customs Union is only about tariffs, it does not address standards. That was taken care of by the Single Market. So goods imported from a third country are stopped at the port of entry of the Member State of a Customs Union, where appropriate agreed tariffs are levied and paid by the importer. Thereafter these goods are allowed to circulate freely within that member state, however they may not be able to circulate freely across the border to any other member state of a Customs Union because each member state might have different standards on products. The EU created their Internal Single Market so that all standards, once agreed between the member states and various interest groups within the EU eg Trade unions, consumer rights groups, health and safety bodies, environmentalists, businesses etc. were uniform. So standards are also checked at the external border when it comes to the EU. Thereafter, other than the usual random spot checks and security checks, it was free friction-less movement of goods across the EU 28.

It is worth appreciating just why this is. The EU tries to present a level playing field within it. Within the Single Market therefore, the various EU members and interest groups have agreed some minimum standards and rights for workers, for consumers, for the environment and for health and safety. Meeting those standards has costs for business. Not meeting them means savings which in turn would mean, all things being equal, businesses outside that level playing field Single Market can undercut those within it. The EU is said to be protectionist. Well they are not internally, but externally they are because they will not allow their own businesses of their own members to be unfairly undercut. So, there are external tariffs, though they are generally much lower than the rest of the world and they make exceptions, such as zero tariffs for everything (but arms) that are supplied by the worlds 49 poorest countries, or South African oranges outside the main Spanish orange growing season. In total the EU had 70 Free Trade Agreements around the world when we voted for Brexit. Even some of the tariffs were on the Entry Price System threshold, which were hardly ever triggered as prices didn't drop that far.

The Customs Union solves tariffs on goods. There are no tariffs on services, so a Customs Union on it's own is irrelevant for services. It does not solve standards on goods either. So an electrical product from China, imported to the UK might not meet EU standards. This is important because we have been making considerable noises since we left, in fact it was a big part of the rhetoric of the leave campaign, that we would take back control, not be subject to Brussels rules and we would diverge from the supposedly onerous EU standards and red tape. We then signed deals with Australia and have signed Memorandum of Understandings (technically worthless but never the less indicators of intent) with a US State. We've told the EU we don't want to stick to your standards. So the EU are forced, by their own huge, detailed, carefully constructed rule book, which has implications on all their other international agreements too, to impose those standards and checks on us, a now third country. This is particularly true for sanitary and phytosanitary checks, because of the public health risks, less so for the products the music industry will have with them, although if I remember correctly there are particularly high standards on electrical goods too. Never the less, it's all paperwork, all queues.

So, let's have a think. When a band goes on tour, what does it have with it? It is going for work purposes, so each member state has its own visa requirements for third country visitors. It is bringing quite a lot of equipment. What will the border officials have to consider? Is the band selling it or using it? Is it of a standard that is compatible with EU regulations? Is it pretending to be a band, but really just trying to smuggle in some premium goods that it can avoid tariffs on by selling on the sly? Let's count them in and count them out, shall we? What are all these t-shirts, badges, tea towels, CD's and vinyl products? What, you need to sell them as merchandise to help fund the band and the tour and also because the fans demand them in the moment? So you are selling goods, not just services? Is there VAT to account for on them? Tariffs? These things are largely made in China, do they conform?

There are some points I've missed that are worth thinking about. I can't be bothered inserting them back in the appropriate paragraphs so I'll just list them here.

There are, or were in 2016, 16 customs unions notified at the WTO. The EU one is I think the only one to cover ALL goods. MERCOSUR, the South American one doesn't cover things like Sugar and Vehicles for instance.
The Turkey EU one doesn't cover agricultural goods, or coal and steel. So you can have partial customs unions.
Instead of a Customs Union, Free Trade Agreements are doable, which can remove tariffs and other restrictions on goods.
The problem with an FTA is companies then have to comply with the very complex ROO (Rules Of Origin) to show the products components were 50%+ from countries who are party to the FTA.
The problem with a Customs Union is it automatically limits the sovereignty of a country on doing its own Trade Agreements, as it is has no leeway to negotiate on tariffs. If the EU negotiates new tariffs, Turkey has to go along with that and perhaps renegotiate its other agreements, or choose to leave the EU one.
Turkey's other problem is it's agreement doesn't cover transport services, hence the Turkey-Bulgaria border routinely suffers 10 mile tailbacks.
You can't have your cake and eat it.
Barriers to trade increase costs of trade.
We trade most with countries nearest us. That is true all over the world and throughout history. The gravity model of trade is the one thing economists can hang their hat on as much as biologists can hang their hat on Darwin's Theory of Evolution.
The EU tries to ensure suppliers in developing countries factories meet EU safety standards and pay decent wages. They do inspections, but this is limited by resource. Never the less it is a noble aspiration that does usually raise standards in a factory and these places become much sought after places of work with highly motivated workers and productivity usually.
The EU does sometimes use underhand tactics and its clout, by insisting on regulation and standards that are effectively too high a barrier to trade for some third country suppliers to meet. It is protectionist. Is that an argument to leave it on a point of principle, or an argument not to leave (and put your self at the wrong end of that), while working to change it from the inside?

It's complex isn't it? And there isn't a sector of the economy that isn't affected.

It is important to understand that it is the combination of the EU Customs Union AND the EU Single Market together that allows friction-less movement of goods (and Services and Labour) within the EU. The further you move away from this, the more costs, barriers, friction, paperwork, delays, complexity there is.

Lastly, the EU is flexible - remember the Barnier steps? - so I've shown below the various options the EU has been happy to partner with, but honestly, we should be right at the very heart of it.



View attachment 42372
That's a really useful diagram 👍
Just needs the UK to be in a little basket 😁
 
Do you really still not understand how this works, or are you just trolling now??
I am not trolling, in fact I feel I feel trolled contstantly on these type of threads by some posters, I didn't start the thread, but eventaully becomes apparent the thread's purpose for some posters is to be as critical as possible of others, who dare to think differently in any way.

The question is do EU countries ask for the paperwork? or is it only the UK? or is it both? I ask this because it was implied it was just the UK by NYBoro.

I will add another one, does every individual EU countries ask? or does one set of paperwork cover the whole of the EU?
 
The question is do EU countries ask for the paperwork? or is it only the UK? or is it both? I ask this because it was implied it was just the UK by NYBoro.

I will add another one, does every individual EU countries ask? or does one set of paperwork cover the whole of the EU?

Ok, so you might have to read my very long post up the page to properly get this, but part of the answer is that the EU, whatever people say, is fundamentally a rule book concerned with fair trade. It works not because each member state automatically trusts each other but because there is a rules based system which everyone has agreed to follow. If they don’t then there are remedies available and a European Court of Justice to enforce them. If you don’t have that you are a third country.

So all these countries follow the rules. Don’t forget, the EU have signed Trade Agreements with many other nations and those nations also expect these rules to be upheld because this was partly the basis on which they signed up to the EU Single Market access. They have given stuff up (some sovereignty) to get it. They judged it that one of the things you want to do with sovereignty, one thing you want to spend it on, is gaining more prosperity for your country. Even if the EU wanted to grant us special status, they couldn’t without an agreement that carefully factored in their internal market rules, customs union and trade deals.

So, at the point of entry each country must insist on the set standards of the EU. That said there are many areas where the EU has no competences or may share competences. One is immigrantion from third countries. The EU and EU countries share competences in this area, but it’s up to each EU country to take the final decision on individual migrant applications. In areas where no EU rules have been adopted, EU countries can also set the conditions on obtaining residence and work permits in their country.

Many Conservative/Leave voters seem to think they could leave the club and still be able to retain the benefits of being a member.
 
I am not trolling, in fact I feel I feel trolled contstantly on these type of threads by some posters, I didn't start the thread, but eventaully becomes apparent the thread's purpose for some posters is to be as critical as possible of others, who dare to think differently in any way.

The question is do EU countries ask for the paperwork? or is it only the UK? or is it both? I ask this because it was implied it was just the UK by NYBoro.

I will add another one, does every individual EU countries ask? or does one set of paperwork cover the whole of the EU?
The EU is a group of nation states that has a series of agreements between them with one of the objects being to improve trade and economies by reducing trade barriers. One of the agreements is to not impose tariffs on movement of goods between member states and in most cases to not carry out checks on the goods. To achieve this the states also agree to mutual standards and regulations so that one member state cannot under-cut any of the others by, for example, producing goods more cheaply by using inferior materials, lower labour standards or lower safety standards (think shoddy electrical appliances or food stuffed with toxic chemicals and pesticides). Countries outside the EU do not enjoy these privileges. The EU states impose restrictions on goods (and people) outside the EU whether that be UK, US, China or any other (except for a few as shown in Lefty's chart above) because they cannot be sure that goods are produced in line with EU's standards. Tories are about to remove ALL legacy UK regulations relating to EU standards and when that happens restrictions on UK goods to the EU will get even tighter.

In June 2016 the UK *KNOWINGLY* voted to put itself outside the EU and the customs union (and single market) so lost the benefits of being in that union and became 'a third country' as far as the EU is concerned.

So when brexiteers whinge about the nasty French and Spaniards picking on them they are either ignorant or disingenuous. UK is being treated just like all the other third countries. After all, they knew what they were voting for. Didn't they? :unsure:

Welcome to the brexit sir!
 
Lefty, looking back why did MPs and specifically Labour MPs reject theresa mays deal?

Not ignoring this, just have a lot going on. I like the distractions of this board sometimes, but I've already fit in some lengthy posts in on a couple of threads, which leaves me little time for another. It's a great question though.
 
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