Red Wall Tories defecting to Labour

Interesting debate

Current public deficits dwarfs those of the past of all political parties. Left of centre governments are commonly associated with larger government deficits normally to fund high public expenditure honest its not a Daily Mail thing. Its often deemed necessary to fund social programmes for the greater social good (is that socialism?). The Labour Government of 1974-79 had to go to the IMF for a loan to hold the economy together.

I tend to go on what's been implemented by the Tories not what they say they will do e.g. no windfall tax (too left wing) then next week there is one. I would be interested to know any fascist/far right style policies that have implemented in recent years? The Tories have been in full power since 2015. There was a nasty policy of reducing disability benefits and freezing welfare payments under Osbourne and Cameron, I saw for myself horrible scenes at an DWP assessment centre that I think some on here would not believe, but they seemed to have retreated on this since 2017 and even increased some benefits. State Pensions are to rise by 10%.

I would say sending mounted police with batons against provoked miners in 1984 was close to fascism, but I don't see that nowadays. If anything I would say we live now in more socially liberal times, than say the 1970s and 80s but less equal.

Levelling up of economic activity I wrote not Levelling Up (I am not sure what is fully meant by the general term Levelling Up and I think its kept vague by all politicians - hence I wrote levelling up of economic activity). Its clear that some areas of the UK needed more economic activity and the career/work opportunities that presents, while other areas of the UK are suffering from housing shortages, unaffordable housing and serious congestion, numerous unfilled vacancies etc. There has been some money provided for this in some areas of the country and some jobs have been moved out of London more so than in the Thatcher years when areas like Teesside felt abandoned at times. It used to called having regional polices for balancing the UK economy, but people stopped saying stuff like that in 1979 and thought it old fashioned, unnecessary and restrictive.

I would call the current Government more populist than right wing. On the whole they do things to please the middle and slightly older voter. Its no surprise a few Tory MPs want to jump ship when populist is not working in the current polls and their primary drive is their own career.
Is that correct.
? Labour when last in reduced started
To reduce deficit then had small increases, then The financial crash happened and the deficit went up significantly, to mainly bail the banks
 
I don't necessarily disagree, but to the floating voter scared from voting Labour due to the 'radical' policies they were supposed to espouse that perception might change, I would prefer Labour to be more left leaning but I'm prepared to accept a more centrist Labour Party in power in the belief that they won't do enough to eradicate all the ills we currently face as a country but they'd do more to tackle them and be far less corrupt than the shower we currently have in, far from ideal but look at it like this we dream of a fortnight in Barbados but end up booking a week in Benidorm so we get some kind of holiday.
Completely agree with this.
 
The Tory Party has moved to the left

I would agree if their left looking policies were part of their overall strategy or ethos but they aren't - they are reactionary policies and when you look at their core values they are very right wing. Immigration being the best example of this, culture wars being another. They also don't win over left wing voters - they are squarely aiming at the right, even the far right.

Regarding the OP - I would accept these MP's. We are at war in the UK - the war against the Tories. They are driving down the economy, living standards and spending on public services and Labour need to do everything they can to beat them. Even holding their nose as defecting Tories come across.

I suspect these Tories are only defecting to save their jobs at the next GE but who knows. Every defection is another nail in the Tory coffin.

As the Tories move further right there is more centre ground to exploit. Labour need to hoover this up to get into power. Starmer's Labour would be better than a Johnson Tory Party so I'm all for it.
 
Current public deficits dwarfs those of the past of all political parties. Left of centre governments are commonly associated with larger government deficits normally to fund high public expenditure honest its not a Daily Mail thing.
it largely is a daily mail thing. Tories cut taxation to maximise wealth for the rich, so tax revenue greatly reduces. Which drives their deficit
State Pensions are to rise by 10%.
another of those deficit creators

I would be interested to know any fascist/far right style policies that have implemented in recent years?
Like the crackdown on peoples ability to peacefully protest? Rwanda policy?
I would say we live now in more socially liberal times, than say the 1970s and 80s but less equal.
agreed, but I would say we live in less socially liberal than 20 years ago

I would say sending mounted police with batons against provoked miners in 1984 was close to fascism, but I don't see that nowadays.
Sarah Everett vigil?

Levelling up of economic activity I wrote not Levelling Up (I am not sure what is fully meant by the general term Levelling Up and I think its kept vague by all politicians - hence I wrote levelling up of economic activity).
what do you mean by levelling up of economic activity? North-South, Male-Female, working class-rich? The term levelling up doesn't really mean anything until it has some flesh on the bones. We see that with this Tory Party its lip service, because the south is still doing better than the north, despite a few scraps thrown it's way, male-female hasn't levelled up in 15 years, and the rich are exponentially getting richer right now. I don't see any levelling up happening.

An infamous example was ATOS a for profit French employer that conducted Disability Living Allowance assessments for the DWP.
Yes, I know, I defined many of the responsibilities for one of these contracts for one of our largest government departments a couple of years ago. Thing is these have been around a very long time, many have been around 15-20 years, the numbers 'employed' by these have actually come down, as continual improvement, technology, automation has reduced the toil. They haven't gone up during Tory rule. In fact many monolithic contracts have been torn up and replaced by more agile, less onerous and easy to escape contracts have been negotiated.

I'd actually question if the apparent rise in civil service numbers is related to the IR35 changes, where many contract staff through agencies and consultancies were no longer allowed to be employed by government on contracts, many ended up working internally, for less. they were always there pre this sudden spike just not 'employed' in the same way.
 
I would prefer Labour to be more left leaning but I'm prepared to accept a more centrist Labour Party in power in the belief that they won't do enough to eradicate all the ills we currently face as a country but they'd do more to tackle them and be far less corrupt than the shower that are currently in
Sadly the overton window has been moved so far right that the public, like int eh US would find socialism impossible to vote for. But, a party with a strong base of socialist policies is much more palatable.
 
I don't necessarily disagree, but to the floating voter scared from voting Labour due to the 'radical' policies they were supposed to espouse that perception might change, I would prefer Labour to be more left leaning but I'm prepared to accept a more centrist Labour Party in power in the belief that they won't do enough to eradicate all the ills we currently face as a country but they'd do more to tackle them and be far less corrupt than the shower that are currently in, far from ideal but look at it like this we can dream of a fortnight in Barbados but end up booking a week in Benidorm so we get at least some kind of holiday.
I get why the Labour Party would try to appeal to ‘floating voters’ and/or people who may have voted Tory last time. But I can’t accept that having three Tory MPs who’ve spent three years campaigning against Labour and in support of this government’s policies and general behaviour, coming into the party is a good thing.

Which is why I said their voting records should be checked and they should explain precisely why they want to join the party, which policies they support, and why they’ve spent three years voting one way but would now presumably be prepared to vote the opposite.

It makes a mockery of it IMO.
 
I get why the Labour Party would try to appeal to ‘floating voters’ and/or people who may have voted Tory last time. But I can’t accept that having three Tory MPs who’ve spent three years campaigning against Labour and in support of this government’s policies and general behaviour, coming into the party is a good thing.

Which is why I said their voting records should be checked and they should explain precisely why they want to join the party, which policies they support, and why they’ve spent three years voting one way but would now presumably be prepared to vote the opposite.

It makes a mockery of it IMO.

It's already a mockery. The only goal should be to get the Tories out - if defections are deemed to help then let them defect.

When are these defections due to take place? Wednesday AM with them crossing the chamber before PMQs?
 
I don't necessarily disagree, but to the floating voter scared from voting Labour due to the 'radical' policies they were supposed to espouse that perception might change, I would prefer Labour to be more left leaning but I'm prepared to accept a more centrist Labour Party in power in the belief that they won't do enough to eradicate all the ills we currently face as a country but they'd do more to tackle them and be far less corrupt than the shower that are currently in, far from ideal but look at it like this we can dream of a fortnight in Barbados but end up booking a week in Benidorm so we get at least some kind of holiday.
My position also. Priority 1 - remove the Tories from power. Priority 2 - In a similar vein to current government policy, do everything within your power to ensure they can never form a government in this country again.
 
Is that correct.
? Labour when last in reduced started
To reduce deficit then had small increases, then The financial crash happened and the deficit went up significantly, to mainly bail the banks
 
These MPs should be told that if they defect they can not expect to stand at the next election as the Labour Party candidate. That should establish what their motives are. I'm not a member of the party any more so in that sense it's none of my business, but if they are allowed to join Labour and be the candidate at the next election then that will push me further away from voting Labour when the time comes.
 
These MPs should be told that if they defect they can not expect to stand at the next election as the Labour Party candidate. That should establish what their motives are. I'm not a member of the party any more so in that sense it's none of my business, but if they are allowed to join Labour and be the candidate at the next election then that will push me further away from voting Labour when the time comes.
It will see my membership disappear too.
 
The threads are drifting a bit from Tories and Labour not big difference etc

But to reply/answer to Boro Mart

Levelling up economically - I see as job opportunuties, particualrly for professional jobs, GDP per region, house prices etc

The far right wing policies you mention have not been fully implemented (yet) and still not like the anti gay laws in the Thatcher Years for me .

I mentioned Pensions because yes I agree this ads to the deficit which to me highlights the popularism stance on money opposed to controlling inflation etc.

I try to look at things from non partisan politcial point of view, I have voted for all the major parties in the last 20 years. I did help the Liberal Democrats but that was back in 1987.
 
You've answered your own question there Red when you described Blair as a social democratic, which is just a point on the political scale a bit to the right of true socialism.

Always thought of Blair, rather than being a European Social Democrat, of being a Euro Christian Democrat who could have fitted into Merkel’s cabinet with ease.
Like the the Labour Party. Euro Social Democrats come in many shades of ‘Socialism’
 
Eee, remember a few days back where I said I’m not sure if I’ll vote Labour or not because I can’t see too much difference between them and the conservatives?

An now we’ve got Tories walking across the floor and being welcomed.

No wonder you’re after me voting Labour @SmallTown … half your previous party are in there. 😉
 
Eee, remember a few days back where I said I’m not sure if I’ll vote Labour or not because I can’t see too much difference between them and the conservatives?

An now we’ve got Tories walking across the floor and being welcomed.

No wonder you’re after me voting Labour @SmallTown … half your previous party are in there. 😉
What a specious argument. I was just saying your attitude is enabling the Tories. And it still is.
 
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