Starmer on Marr this morning

I always chuckle seeing people make this sort of case. For Labour's leaders to campaign as tories, which will magically lead to victory, then when they're in office suddenly pivot to whatever other policies they really want. How are they meant to win a second term doing this? Won't all the new tory voters they've conned be even more anti-Labour than they've ever been at that point?

Bit of an understatement. How many CLPs have been banned from having meetings recently?

Who will Labour be able to go in to a coalition with? Realistically SNP would be the only possible option. Wonder what their price would be. :unsure:
He's not campaigning as a tory, I never said that, you did. I mean he's just taking up a more "middle ground" stance, doing whatever it takes to get enough votes, which is the most important thing. You have to win first, in all the time we've had Corbyn, the country and it's leadership has gotten further and further right, and further and further south, it's literally killing us.

If you don't wan the tories in, you have to grab the voters and bring them with you, you cant have your cake and eat it, like Labour were trying with Corbyn, we have too many d***heads in the UK to get that through.

We just don't have enough people that think Corbyn's way to win and he was also not a good enough leader and not good enough up against the Tories in Westminster. I would rather Starmer get 5/10 of Labours good ideas through is than Corbyn getting through 0/15 of the Labours good ideas. You have to win, or be able to form a winning coalition, if you don't win you let the others win, which will massively fcuk over your own party and voters.

It's not a pivot (certainly nowhere near what the tories have done), as we wouldn't be re-joining the EU, not anytime within the next decade anyway. Joining the SM and CU can de done outside of the EU. Plus it's 4 years away before the next GE and would be at least 10 before any major changes like that. People are allowed to change their minds, even more so when public opinion will change, once this clusterfcuck becomes more apparent.

I don't mid a coalition with the SNP, I'd much rather that than the Tories who are going further and further right, and further and further south.
 
I've no idea @Ironops my understanding of politics was formed towards the end of Blair's era (I'm only a young gentleman afterall).

I only know that in my lifetime we've had 0.5 (if we give Tony's first few years) actual labour governments.

JC was absolutely assassinated by every facet of the establishment tentacles, that much is fact. To be honest as far I remember Labour should represent the working class yet they've given every working class issue to the Tories in favour of pushing divisive identity politics.
 
He's not campaigning as a tory, I never said that, you did.

I stand by it. Can only go on the things Starmer chooses to say in public. And what he's told us is he's against increasing corporation tax, and in favour of austerity.

I would rather Starmer get 5/10 of Labours good ideas through is than Corbyn getting through 0/15 of the Labours good ideas. You have to win, or be able to form a winning coalition, if you don't win you let the others win, which will massively fcuk over your own party and voters.

I agree with you. I'd happily take 5/10. The problem is Starmer is going to go in to an election promising 0/10 and still not win - ala Ed Miliband.

I don't mid a coalition with the SNP

Agree with you again. It's a shame Starmer doesn't. We know what their price would be for a coalition, and Starmer's already said he'd never allow it.

Even if he went back on what he's said, and allowed a new Scottish indy referendum - it just leads me back to my first question. How does he win a second term from that position?
 
his sole purpose being removing the corrupt to the core Tories..

Starmer, or any other future Labour leader, desperately need to have more strings to their bow than this. The next election is such an impossible task for Labour that he could easily find himself having achieved nothing by 2025.

Corbyn did well moving the Overton window but how quickly has that been rolled back? And the party itself looks almost exactly the way it did when he first became leader.

Miliband at least had an effect on democratising the party.

Blair and Brown, got their 13 years in government but how many of the key policies have been rolled back or made redundant since?
 
I would much rather have a duplicitous Starmer than an incompetent Johnson, of that there is no doubt.

On the Andrew Marr show, Starmer became a bit awkward when asked about freedom of movement, I think it was, it became very apparent that he was avoiding the question.

I understand, and most people watching a political show would too, that the EU have said they will not re-negotiate the trade deal with the UK until there is a clear political apetite to do so within the UK generally. However he could still have said this and reiterated his desire to implement freedom of movement across Europe. However, I think that would be a vote looser. I suspect that is why he hummed and hawed around it.
 
I stand by it. Can only go on the things Starmer chooses to say in public. And what he's told us is he's against increasing corporation tax, and in favour of austerity.

I agree with you. I'd happily take 5/10. The problem is Starmer is going to go in to an election promising 0/10 and still not win - ala Ed Miliband.

Agree with you again. It's a shame Starmer doesn't. We know what their price would be for a coalition, and Starmer's already said he'd never allow it.

Even if he went back on what he's said, and allowed a new Scottish indy referendum - it just leads me back to my first question. How does he win a second term from that position?
End of the day he's just the leader, he's not the entire party and he seems to have more MP's behind him that JC did, less for the press to go after him with and he can certainly fight back better.

As a small business owner I'm against increases to corporation tax, purely as this screws small businesses and favours big businesses, and an increase in tax would provide me (and many other small business owners) more pain, and is just more for the larger companies to offset, lose, claim against or funnel away.
We need smaller tax % for small businesses and larger/ less avoidable ones for large business, increasing percentages helps nobody but the rich as it just kills their small business competition. That's just my personal view mind.

Ed Miliband was up against Cameron who although still a tosser was a much better leader than Boris (better the devil you know, so to speak), Cameron's big problem was underestimating the far right/ brexidiots. Cameron didn't beat miliband on his own either, he had to join up with the Lib Dems (can't see that happening again).

If you mean an SNP independence vote, then let them have it, they've been fcucked by England anyway, good luck to them. If I was them I would want to get away from England too. I think the they would stay in the UK if Labour were in, but if the Tories stay in then it will cement their leaving in stone, whenever they get the chance.

I've got nothing against JC by the way, I just thought he came across weak and think he underestimated how fcucked up a lot of our people are, you need to go to the middle to pick up some votes, to counteract that.

The second term is a problem for the second term, but the first term, brexit problems, old far rights being replaced with you far lefts would all help. I'm sure there would be something else crop up, for then, there is always something. Whether it's war, brexit, pandemics, natural distaters etc.
 
Cameron didn't beat miliband on his own either, he had to join up with the Lib Dems (can't see that happening again).

Cameron's coalition with the Lib Dems was after the 2010 election vs Gordon Brown.

The 2015 election where he was up against Ed Miliband is when the tories won their first majority 23 years.

I think the they would stay in the UK if Labour were in, but if the Tories stay in then it will cement their leaving in stone, whenever they get the chance.

Got to say I disagree that it'll make much difference. Think Labour are very unpopular north of the border these days.

I've got nothing against JC by the way, I just thought he came across weak

I agree. As I was alluding to in my last post. A year on (almost) from the end of Corbyn's 5 years as party leader and it may as well not have happened. What a wasted opportunity.
 
Nobody will remember all this enormous detail in four years time (I got a bit bored after the first couple of lines) and the world will be different then and Starmer will have changed to suit.

Survival belongs to the most adaptable - look at Boris Johnson for the best example of that, he proved in the last election that it doesn‘t matter what you have said previously as long as you harness the current issues and mood.

Survival belongs to those who can adapt to the environment.

The political environment is determined by the public.

When it turns against incompetent shysters who will say what they want for personal gain, who wreck the economy and the NHS, but shovel enormous sums to their friends out of the public coffers, we might find the environment far too hostile for the Conservative Party to survive in it's current guise.
 
Survival belongs to those who can adapt to the environment.

The political environment is determined by the public.

When it turns against incompetent shysters who will say what they want for personal gain, who wreck the economy and the NHS, but shovel enormous sums to their friends out of the public coffers, we might find the environment far too hostile for the Conservative Party to survive in it's current guise.
I sincerely hope you’re right. They are a party with intolerant Victorian values that don’t even feel the need to disguise it.

Their treatment of all but a very few is nothing short of barbaric, but they’re not the worst problem. It’s those who are affected deeply by their policies yet still enable them to be in power that really need to give their heads a shake.
 
Cameron's coalition with the Lib Dems was after the 2010 election vs Gordon Brown.

The 2015 election where he was up against Ed Miliband is when the tories won their first majority 23 years.

Got to say I disagree that it'll make much difference. Think Labour are very unpopular north of the border these days.

I agree. As I was alluding to in my last post. A year on (almost) from the end of Corbyn's 5 years as party leader and it may as well not have happened. What a wasted opportunity.
Sorry yes, course it was. But some of the reasons labour lost the 2010 election (from memory) was not based on policies or facts, it was because Blair went, who was probably Labours last strong leader. Also the Tories and Tory press started to blame Blair for the war (which seemed to stick). I find that weird as all the Tories and press seemed to be for it at the time, and not one Tory voted against it. The public even wanted it at the time, and so did the forces who had to go and do it (myself included). It's easy to throw $hit at Blair now, but he was in a tough situation, and easy to complain in hindsight.

I know a lot of the JC lot hate Blair, but he did well winning from and then fending off the Tories. I don't think Blair had handed over a sunken ship that would lose based on non-winnable policies, it seems they lost because of the change in leader and gullible public fed crap about the recession and war (and ongoing war is a vote sapper).
People didn't think Brown was as good a leader and didn't trust him with the purse strings, this is where the problems really started for Labour combined with a bit of an uprising of far right nut jobs. The same people wouldn't trust JC, or see him as strong.

Since 2010 we probably have half of labour voters have gone further left, 1/4 have stayed the same and 1/4 buggered off to the Tories because of JC or brexit (very basic example). But in that time half the Tories have gone a lot further right and the other half are either just further right or stayed the same. Overall that's a big swing right, at the time as labour having the most left leader in ages. It wasn't going to work, it was unwinnable, especially with brexit being the no 1 headline (until covid).

The country has moved right, so as much as I hate it, we need to go over there a bit, pick some of the misguided up and bring them back, and once we have enough, have an election and see where we're at and what policies we can get by without losing masses of voters. I'm not concerned about Labour losing the JC supporters, where they going to go? It's not like they're going to vote Tory. As long as the Tories don't get enough seats on their own, then I think a coalition against them could work, for starters.

Labour probably are less popular up Scotland but it's because England is more unpopular in their eyes, thanks to the Tories and England voting brexit, and in that time the SNP have took their chance and started actually putting up a fight.
 
In a major exclusive, Electronic Intifada (EI) has reported that Keir Starmer has appointed a former state-employed hacker from the Israeli military’s ‘Unit 8200’ cyberspy unit monitoring Palestinians and others and which even managed to hack antivirus company Kaspersky. Whistleblowers from the unit revealed that members sometimes wore ‘X’s on their headsets to mark assassinations their information had facilitated – and that it targeted Palestinians for extortion and blackmail to further the government’s aims.
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Assaf Kaplan, a former Unit 8200 officer, will take the post of ‘Social Listening and Organising Manager’ in Starmer’s office – ‘social listening’ is a term for organisations monitoring online conversations about them, or any other topic of interest. Kaplan is, or was until recently, also a Linkedin contact of Shai Masot, the disgraced Israeli spy who was sent out of the UK after his interference in UK politics was discovered.


According to EI,


Kaplan’s LinkedIn states he has experience using a “digital monitoring platform” as well as “human analysis” to keep tabs on voters in Israeli elections.

and the mention of his experience in military intelligence was deleted after the EI article was published.


The appointment will be a serious concern to Labour members and others with concerns about free speech and Labour’s ongoing war on the human rights of its members – and the Labour right has plenty of ‘form’ that should add to those objections.


During Jeremy Corbyn’s second leadership election, the Labour right – still in control of the party machine – purged thousands of party members based on innocuous social media comments, even when the accounts those members were using were anonymous and used email addressed that were not used for party communications.


And in a chilling, recorded phone call, a Labour staffer admitted to one member, who phoned in to complain, that the party could use backdoor access to social media against members and would-be members – and the slew of expulsions, suspensions and denied membership applications suggested that it was freely doing so.


Even though the party’s own documents to staff said that any attempt to monitor members’ social media was a breach of data protection laws.


The party bureaucracy was also said to be able to use features of its membership management platform to track down and monitor the social media accounts of members.


And now Keir Starmer has appointed a former specialist hacker from a unit described as “on a par with the [US] NSA in everything except scale”, to ‘listen’ to social media output. Such a move has no place in a supposedly democratic party, no matter which country the activities were carried out in or for which government.

 
Starmer yesterday put out a video supporting the striking British Gas workers. Fair play to him for that. (y)

Shockingly before 2015 no UK Labour party leaders had ever publically supported a strike.
 
Meanwhile the Starmer / Evans purge and political interference in democracy continues apace and not a wisper from the Capitalist media.
Whilst expelling Labour Activists, including prominent Jewish members, the leadership hires a former "Intelligence" Officer used to spy on Palestinians in their occupied land.

CLP secretary suspended for discussing the EHRC Report

Tue 19 Jan 2021

EHRC-Tom-Conwell-723x1000.jpg


JEWISH VOICE FOR LABOUR:
 
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