Gibson on “The Big Picture”

He used to be a millionaire playing against other millionaires and local aldermen. Now he's a slightly less rich millionaire playing against mega-billion global corporations. We can't possibly meaningfully compete unless there's some sugar daddy or mummy who sees us an investment opportunity. And you wouldn't, would you, in the current state?

Clearly, we need the money, and pretty sharp. As said up thread it's disgusting and sadly predictable that those who can ride out the pandemic and downturn take advantage of it to seemingly offer a "take it or leave it" option to those looking for scraps. I think Gibbo is hoping for a wage cap to come riding over the hill to make the whole thing more sustainable, but I've said before it won't work when players can simply move to Italy or wherever and earn more. Or even sit on Chelsea's bench.

I watched a brief thing yesterday which reckoned cricket may be heading back to amateurism at a county level. The good times (which now look like utter folly in terms of the amount of money flowing through bang average players. their agents and all the other leeches that feed off football) look over except for the gilded few at the top in sport generally. But it's going to be painful to get to a sustainable level. To borrow a deathless phrase, you fix the roof when the weather is good, and we now see that they didn't.
 
coluka said:
Ooooh get you humpty, is that cockney rhyming slang for numpty? He failed to back him with the players needed to stay up, I raise your ‘absolute tosh‘ with an extra pair of rose tinted blinkers for you should your existing pair wear out.
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Oh personal attacks. You’re good at them when someone opposes your view.

Do you really think every manager gets their first choice transfer target? No, unfortunately football doesn’t work like that. Karanka (yet again) threw his toys out the pram. He was already in a downward spiral before he was sacked due to the fostering of a divisive culture during the Premier League season which meant relegation was inevitable. Three under the bus? More like put out of his misery.
 
Having thought about it Gibsons position is the sensible one.

He supports the financial support and reprofiling, the EPL wage cap, whilst also making it clear that the shift of PL power to the bigger clubs is not welcome.

Its the smart move because if he roundly rejects the proposals the impetus for the positive elements are immediately lost.

The majority PL clubs, or the EPL, will never support it, but there are some important elements within it that the EFL clubs need to keep on the table.

This isn't over with the rejection of the plan and the EFL support for it puts pressure of the EPL to reform.
 
If Gibson is really losing over a million a month then I can't blame him for support of project wonga. The payments go up massively.

He continues to plough in money with little or no return. I would rather 'do a deal with the devil' than go bust.

I think the far bigger issue is for other prem clubs. Although that could be us one day😕
 
Humpty said:
Oh personal attacks. You’re good at them when someone opposes your view.

Do you really think every manager gets their first choice transfer target? No, unfortunately football doesn’t work like that. Karanka (yet again) threw his toys out the pram. He was already in a downward spiral before he was sacked due to the fostering of a divisive culture during the Premier League season which meant relegation was inevitable. Three under the bus? More like put out of his misery.
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Jesé, Bojan and Deulofeu were his targets £10m to £12m a pop. As much as I loved a Karanka I don’t think that those players would have been enough to keep us up. Gestede, Bamford and Guardiola we’re not up to it either but should have been ok in the championship (which is clearly what we were preparing for) Gestede didn’t work out and was a total wast of money.. but I’m not sure Jesé or even Bojan would have faired much better and would have left us much worse off financially. We took too many risks on players in the prem and for a team built on defensive solidity we looked severely lacking when Chambers wasn’t playing (imo)
 
Humpty said:
Oh personal attacks. You’re good at them when someone opposes your view.

Do you really think every manager gets their first choice transfer target? No, unfortunately football doesn’t work like that. Karanka (yet again) threw his toys out the pram. He was already in a downward spiral before he was sacked due to the fostering of a divisive culture during the Premier League season which meant relegation was inevitable. Three under the bus? More like put out of his misery.
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Thats rich reading your earlier clever comment. You don’t like my opinion, thats fine, you offer nothing in debate though, just put downs, very bright. The downward spiral was started due to poor recruitment in 2016 caused by too many people having a say. Karanka was a Head Coach, not a manager. I respectfully suggest you research the difference, they have less control and responsibility, it is NOT just a job title.

Maybe you should listen to the pre match interview with Graeme Jones prior to the Luton 3 v 3 Boro game if you can. He explained why he would not want to be a head coach. Karanka was the fall guy for the mistakes of others as well as his own. Yes he was not perfect, but his rant prior to the WBA game about recruitment was him telling the fans what he thought of the clubs recruitment, he knew his job was mission impossible. He knew what was needed and the club failed to deliver. He was an easy scapegoat for others. We have been fed so much guff in recent years and certain fans seem happy to believe it.

Listen to the post Southampton smash the league speech. Listen to the Root and branch review speech re Pulis. Listen to the Ajax lite speech re Woodgate. All bigger Lurch’s than you’ll see in the Addams family. You can only see the bigger picture if you have an open mind, unfortunately some fans don’t.
 
Presumably we can agree something has to change.

I can see why SG is in favour - the same for (if we believe the news) the majority of clubs in the EFL.
Put simply - in its current format clubs will go out of business for fun.
Is this the right thing? Who knows.

Certainly, in the short term, it protects EFL clubs. 25% cut of Prem revenue and the immediate investment of £250m is not to be sneered at. It protects clubs and, indeed will come as some relief to those personally propping up businesses that lose money hand over fist and will continue to do so.
Just imagine being that benefactor - pumping cash in week after week knowing there is no end in sight?

The worry of course is we all get sold down the river at some time.

What are the altermnatives?
The big 6, whether we like it or not, is the reason the Prem gets so much exposure. It is a worldwide satellite TV phenomenon with the UK impact being negligible. They drive the revenue. without them there is little or nothing to share around.

It is thought that the other option is for the big 6 to set up their own European Super League.
 
This is like negotiating with a loan shark who has already got you tied up and is hovering a hammer over your knuckles.

The mechanics of the proposal seem to be salvation now, but servitude forever, with the self appointed 'big six' under no obligation to honour the terms of the deal season to season.

But it's the only deal on the table, unless this jolts 14 other PL clubs to come up with something better.

I think we would have all preferred to see Steve Gibson the supporter on this issue and say 'up yours' to the clubs who never suffer, always gain and still moan about it, but we've got Steve Gibson the businessman calculating how to keep the club a going concern, and lets face it as he clocks over 35 years as chairman how to make it a sellable asset in the next decade.

It's two powerful clubs able to financially and politically out-manouvere 90 other club owners/custodians all with their own problems, debts and politics.
 
coluka said:
Thats rich reading your earlier clever comment. You don’t like my opinion, thats fine, you offer nothing in debate though, just put downs, very bright. The downward spiral was started due to poor recruitment in 2016 caused by too many people having a say. Karanka was a Head Coach, not a manager. I respectfully suggest you research the difference, they have less control and responsibility, it is NOT just a job title.

Maybe you should listen to the pre match interview with Graeme Jones prior to the Luton 3 v 3 Boro game if you can. He explained why he would not want to be a head coach. Karanka was the fall guy for the mistakes of others as well as his own. Yes he was not perfect, but his rant prior to the WBA game about recruitment was him telling the fans what he thought of the clubs recruitment, he knew his job was mission impossible. He knew what was needed and the club failed to deliver. He was an easy scapegoat for others. We have been fed so much guff in recent years and certain fans seem happy to believe it.

Listen to the post Southampton smash the league speech. Listen to the Root and branch review speech re Pulis. Listen to the Ajax lite speech re Woodgate. All bigger Lurch’s than you’ll see in the Addams family. You can only see the bigger picture if you have an open mind, unfortunately some fans don’t.
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At no point did i lower myself to insults like you did.

I’m assuming you’re choosing to ignore my points. It’s rich to see you suggesting I have an open mind when you’re not even responding to the points raised.

I’ll continue with objective evidence...

Karanka has no responsibility for recruitment? I suggest you read yesterday’s article from the Gazette in which he claims responsibility for brining Traore to the club despite others telling him it was a bad idea.

All I see is excuses without any culpability. Karanka should’ve been sacked post walk out. If you’re going to blame Gibson for anything, you should be blaming him for that.
 
Unfortunately the Premier League have got the EFL (and actually most of the PL) over a barrel so having thought about it I think SG is unfortunately spot on. Treachery and power grabs can work both ways......but you’ve got to be still got to be in the fight for that to happen! So once again unless the government steps in with the money it’s sh1t or bust!!
I personally hope the Saudi takeover of Newcastle can be resurrected to start to redress the balance of power in football.
 
Humpty said:
At no point did i lower myself to insults like you did.
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It was still a snide reply.
The only decent thing Gibson has done in years was bring in Kenyon and therefore Karanka. It’s been a horror show pre and post.
He needs someone like Kenyon and his contact book on board.
 
1finny said:
The worry of course is we all get sold down the river at some time.

What are the altermnatives?
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It would be not a matter of if, but when. Once the current TV deal ends, the big 6 move the goal posts, ensure agreements are in their favour and less cash cascades down the leagues. This proposal is nothing more than kicking the can down the road imho.

Personally, I feel we need Government intervention and regulation. Clubs are not just businesses, they are community assets too. Salary caps, transfer caps, level playing fields are needed at all levels. Yes I am sure in the short term other leagues abroad may benefit as players and agents follow the money. If that means teams like Liverpool and their like feck off to play abroad and give up on domestic football, let them go, their City’s fans will suffer in the long term and grow to hate it as they can’t afford to follow them home and away.
 
Humpty said:
At no point did i lower myself to insults like you did.

I’m assuming you’re choosing to ignore my points. It’s rich to see you suggesting I have an open mind when you’re not even responding to the points raised.

I’ll continue with objective evidence...

Karanka has no responsibility for recruitment? I suggest you read yesterday’s article from the Gazette in which he claims responsibility for brining Traore to the club despite others telling him it was a bad idea.

All I see is excuses without any culpability. Karanka should’ve been sacked post walk out. If you’re going to blame Gibson for anything, you should be blaming him for that.
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Your initial comment was a sarcastic put down suggesting you could not be bothered to read on.
Now, Where did I say he had no responsibility? He had a say. Downing confirmed he believed Karanka did not want him. Rhodes and Forshaw were his gifts from the chairman. He said he wanted creative pacy attacking players and was ‘given’ 2 championship centre forwards. He had a say, but not a veto. I repect your right to an opinion, but you are ignoring the elephant in the room imho. I will leave it there.
 
Apparently supporters organisations of the ‘big six’ have stated their opposition to the proposal. We are against it as supporters and see football with a fans eyed view.

As an owner, Steve Gibson sees it with an owners eyes. At least he is against the power grab aspect, but can anyone have their cake and eat it?

Looking at the state of the country, businesses big and small folding, reducing size, or suffering seemingly endless losses. The time just seems ripe for the viper to strike.

I can’t see it happening but let’s hope for a better offer and the dropping of the big six idea
 
Piccadilly Day Tripper said:
but we've got Steve Gibson the businessman calculating how to keep the club a going concern
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I'm not normally one to have a go at Gibson cause I do think we all owe him a debt of gratitude for the memories 1994-2006 and for keeping the club going when it obviously otherwise wouldn't.

But personally I don't see this as the shrewd moves of a canny businessman. More like the desperate wishful thinking of a problem gambler.

I don't see why he's talking up a salary cap. It's not in the proposals. I can't see Championship clubs voting for one. He can't even get them to stick to the FFP rules we already have in place. And yet his support for the rest of the proposals seems to be based on that notion. Of course the money will go in one end and out the other. TBH I can see it speeding up some clubs demise because they'll just increase their spending and rack up larger debts quicker.

Swapping parachute payments for something more equitable across the league will make for a better competition but it also means either promoted teams having to not really commit to top league spending and budget for going straight back down (which will probably be self fulfilling in a lot of cases) or having a firesale after relegation.

We're exactly one of the clubs with the most to lose if the number of Premier League teams and the number of Championship playoff spots is reduced. That sort of zone between being the 15th to the 25th best team in the country is the sort of ballpark we should always be aiming at. That's our historical level. Currently half those places even if they sadly come with relegation get you £100m+ income because they're still in the top flight.

Getting rid of the league cup will be awful for a club like ours. It's the only competition we could realistically have a chance of winning. Take that away and what's left?
 
Gibson has made it clear he is not willing to put money into Boro since 2016, because he hasn't.
GO'N effectively loan MFC money equivalent to any season's loss. They currently guarantee over £90m in this way. That will rise starkly this season. That will be a major worry and irritation to Gibson.
IF Gibson sees Boro as a Championship club, then he will want more funding from PL media monies.
IF there is a wage cap imposed in the EFL by division, then Gibson will see opportunity to be promoted and to survive in the Championship without him having to invest or loan the funds to enable that. He will see Championship football as sustainable.
IF this new set of financial equations is set then Gibson will see the opportunity to retain control of his club, without further personal liability AND the opportunity to get promoted, reduce debt (to himself) and make the club a more attractive sellable asset.

From a Steve Gibson personal perspective he would be mad not to support it.
He knows he can't retain control of the club and compete in the PL; he has neither funds or capability.
He knows he can't sell the club without writing off the tens of millions the club owes its parent.
As it is he is stuck, so of course he would personally welcome this and Parry will know that he and his ilk will do so.

I have major doubts about the proposal as it stands:
1. Pay per view will emerge, income will be dominated by the "big 6" based on international viewing and the future collective TV deals will be worth much less. 25% of future collective deal will be far smaller than 25% of the current collective deal. The 25%(or whatever figure) should be of TOTAL media money generated by the collective deal plus PPV.
2. EFL salary caps will make it impossible to tie talent and will suppress transfer fees. The PL will simply take every talented player and tie them to long contracts. I see the proposal includes PL clubs having 15 players out on loan at other clubs.(4 at any one club) This will see them having their squad of 25 plus 15 and Academies hoovering up the best talent on big money. There has to be a challenge to this complete stranglehold on talent.
At the very least these 15 players out on loan should be loaned to EFL clubs and the salary entirely paid by the parent club. Danny Rose coming to Boro should see his £100k wage entirely paid by Spurs if he is not in their 25 man squad, without guarantees that he has to play every match, or any other formalised "conditions".
3. This Big 6 nonsense is just that. Leeds, Villa, Newcastle and Everton could all make claims to be able to burst into that imaginary group. Others may have aspirations and at least see themselves as competitors and not see this formalisation of a "big 6" as absolute. I am fundamentally against the principle that any PL member has more weight in a vote than any other. This is my biggest concern.
4. Candidly, why does the PL have to reduce to 18 clubs? This simply reduces the likelihood of clubs outside the initial "big 6" ever establishing themselves and competing in the top flight. It is anti-competitive and prevents a freshness in our game.
Structural reform of the game may well be inevitable and positive.
I see merit in one FA Cup competition played after Xmas, when European football is often over for many clubs.
This would allow more of the season to be completed earlier when weather is better, in the league outside the PL and enable the PL to play more Euro matches pre Xmas if they wish.
I also don't believe that what clubs earn through playing in other competitions (Europe and Friendlies) should be pooled. Share what we generate together would be my principle and don't allow the pursuit of additional revenue to impact on the equal fulfillment of each Club's obligations to domestic competition.
I'm neither here or there over a Community Shield and if this allows the PL clubs to pimp themselves around the globe chasing the Dollar, Baht, Rupee, Ringgit, Won, Yen or Yuan, then so be it.
I'd also like to see limitations on international football. More countries in Finals competitions, but much less in the way of qualification matches and meaningless friendlies.

I totally get Gibson's support on a personal level.
I hope this proposal is not nearly the final "solution" for the reasons I have stated above - amongst others.
 
SuperStu said:
We're exactly one of the clubs with the most to lose if the number of Premier League teams and the number of Championship playoff spots is reduced. That sort of zone between being the 15th to the 25th best team in the country is the sort of ballpark we should always be aiming at. That's our historical level. Currently half those places even if they sadly come with relegation get you £100m+ income because they're still in the top flight.

Getting rid of the league cup will be awful for a club like ours. It's the only competition we could realistically have a chance of winning. Take that away and what's left?
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I 100% agree with you. The money might come in, but the sporting integrity of the game in this country will be damaged for a very long period of time.

It's a terrible choice: how do you want to eat ****? on a plate with a knife and fork, or in a tortilla wrap? Either way, its going to taste disgusting.
 
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