Supreme Court ruling on Scot ref - Scottish govt does NOT have right to hold another referendum

It bemuses me that Scots can fall for the line that any Scottish problems are because of Westminster. Everything apart from the Treasury and Defence is ran in Scotland. The NHS since it's inception has been ran in Scotland. Police is Scotland, Education is Scotland, Courts and Law is Scotland, Local Government is Scotland, Environmental matters is Scotland and the list goes on.

Scotland has huge autonomy to do what it wants. Like the UK had with its membership of the EU prior to 2016, Scotland has a pretty good deal as it happens now.
 
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sherlock1969 said:
Wow, you'll be amazed when you hear about the vote result that took us out of the EU.......
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No s**t Sherlock!!
Yes I was aware of that, which emphasises my point. When the exit poll came in at 10pm, and it looked like the vote was “No” Nigel Farage was proposing another referendum in two years time. It was a travesty to go through all the pain, disruption and cost of leaving EU on a 50/50 ish vote, when you cannot go back on the decision afterwards.
We would never have left EU if it needed , say, 60% in favour.
 
Nano said:
Nope. What you have written is in fact nonsense. Scotland didn't vote to remain. We didn't vote in constituencies never mind as individual countries. We voted as a single nation where every vote counted equally. Scotland were dragged out in the exact same way every remain voter was dragged out. This is what happened:
1. Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK.
2. The UK voted to leave the EU.

I agree with the bit in bold. What I don't agree with is the timeframe. With hindsight there should have been more rules when the referendum happened to remove this debate, specifically "if Remain wins there will be no repeat of the referendum for x years unless x, y or z conditions are met" but that's another failure from the politicians.


The justification is that they voted to remain in the UK fairly recently. You can't change your mind every time the people you have decided to be in charge do something you don't like. It's too big a question to repeat so frequently.
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That's no justification. The role of the UK in the world has changed since the last referendum, no matter how much you try to play it down.

What is being suggested by you is that they should put up with those changes regardless of their plight. It's suppression of a nation, nothing else.
 
Corcaigh_the_Cat said:
That's no justification. The role of the UK in the world has changed since the last referendum, no matter how much you try to play it down.

What is being suggested by you is that they should put up with those changes regardless of their plight. It's suppression of a nation, nothing else.
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It isn't suppression of a nation because they aren't a nation. They are a part of the UK. Loads of people in the UK didn't want to leave the EU or didn't want the Tories in charge but have to put up with it.

The majority of Scotland voted to be a part of the UK very recently (politically speaking) and that includes going along with all of the decisions that are made. Their decision should be respected. They aren't even polling as heavily in favour of either having a referendum or independence. The problem seems to be that some people in Scotland see themselves as unique from the rest of the UK but they aren't. There are people all around the country that see themselves as different from the rest. London would probably love to break away and become a city state, they think they are paying for the rest of us. Liverpool think they are different from England and "Scouse not English" is a popular feeling in Liverpool, Cornwall see themselves as different, even places like Yorkshire do. Scotland is a region of the UK, with additional political and legal devolved rights and a vocal minority of nationalists but the majority of the country want to be a part of the UK.

The question of whether they have the right to self-determination isn't a yes/no. It is a when. When is it appropriate to ask the question via referendum again? If you asked it every day for 10 years there will have been days where yes would have won but no would have won on the vast majority. Until it is yes everyday, and comfortably, then you have to respect the result of the last time it was asked via referendum otherwise it is just the SNP gambling they can pick the referendum for one of those minority days where yes would have won.
 
Nano said:
It isn't suppression of a nation because they aren't a nation. They are a part of the UK. Loads of people in the UK didn't want to leave the EU or didn't want the Tories in charge but have to put up with it.

The majority of Scotland voted to be a part of the UK very recently (politically speaking) and that includes going along with all of the decisions that are made. Their decision should be respected. They aren't even polling as heavily in favour of either having a referendum or independence. The problem seems to be that some people in Scotland see themselves as unique from the rest of the UK but they aren't. There are people all around the country that see themselves as different from the rest. London would probably love to break away and become a city state, they think they are paying for the rest of us. Liverpool think they are different from England and "Scouse not English" is a popular feeling in Liverpool, Cornwall see themselves as different, even places like Yorkshire do. Scotland is a region of the UK, with additional political and legal devolved rights and a vocal minority of nationalists but the majority of the country want to be a part of the UK.

The question of whether they have the right to self-determination isn't a yes/no. It is a when. When is it appropriate to ask the question via referendum again? If you asked it every day for 10 years there will have been days where yes would have won but no would have won on the vast majority. Until it is yes everyday, and comfortably, then you have to respect the result of the last time it was asked via referendum otherwise it is just the SNP gambling they can pick the referendum for one of those minority days where yes would have won.
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I'll rephrase that, it's suppression of a country.
 
Even in the landslide victory the SNP achieved in the 2015 election, they did not make 50% of the Scottish vote.

In 2010 UK General election they got 19.9% of vote
In 2011 Scots Parliament election they got 45.4% of the vote.
In 2015 UK GE they got 49.9% of the vote. They have never got a majority, even when they won
In 2016 Scots Parliament they got 46.5% of the vote.
In 2017 UK GE they got 36.9% of the vote.
In 2019 UK GE they got 45% of the vote.
In 2021 Scots Parliament elections they got 47.7% of the vote

Scotland have enjoyed more seats than they warrant through population (But less than Wales).
The SNP got 45% of the votes in 2019 yet 81.4% of the seats in an over-represented Scotland.
At their 2015 highpoint, they got 49.9% of the vote and 94.9% of the seats.
In 2017 their 36.9% of the vote got them 59.3% of the seats.
They have always enjoyed far more voice than they deserve.

In their big hurrah, the 2014 Referendum they got 45%.

They always get ridiculously more seats than their share of vote in every election. There are an awful lot of very low majority SNP seats.
They have never had a Scottish Parliament majority of seats.

If Labour get themselves remotely organised in Scotland then the SNP could lose an awful lot of seats.
 
Nero said:
It bemuses me that Scots can fall for the line that any Scottish problems are because of Westminster. Everything apart from the Treasury and Defence is ran in Scotland. The NHS since it's inception has been ran in Scotland. Police is Scotland, Education is Scotland, Courts and Law is Scotland, Local Government is Scotland, Environmental matters is Scotland and the list goes on.

Scotland has huge autonomy to do what it wants. Like the UK had with its membership of the EU prior to 2016, Scotland has a pretty good deal as it happens now.
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Scottish public services are also subsidised by the rest of the UK through the Barnett formula so per head of population people living in Scotland receive more money for public services than the rest of the UK. I believe it was done politically in the late 1970s because Scots wanted an oil dividend from newly found North Sea Oil. However the net tax revenue from oil and gas is now quite lower that say in the 1980s.

List goes on.....set their own income tax rates, have water companies that were not privatised. There is certainly a certain level of independence already

Voting wise there is hardcore 45% vote for the SNP, that is gnerally Left of centre and I don't think Labour will make progress in an election in the near future, because you need a lot votes in individual seats to overcome the 45% that is widely spread around Scotland

For example a urban seat would be typically 45% SNP, 30% Labour, 10% Liberal, 10% Conservative, 5% Green -

Rural - it would 45% SNP, 25% Conservative, 17% Liberal, 5% Labour, 8% Green

it would need an Alliance to defeat the SNP because of the way SNP support is quite evenly sporead and represents the only way to vote for total independence.
 
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indeedido said:
If Labour get themselves remotely organised in Scotland then the SNP could lose an awful lot of seats.
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I hope so and I agree that labour need to start hitting back at their traditional heartland.

But my worry is that has the snp vote replaced the labour one as in Im an SNP voter always have been always will be mantra.

Sturgeon ( via salmon) has positioned a party that was once seen as a bunch of crack pots in arran sweaters with a handful of seats into the defacto choice of the Scottish left.

It’s an incredible turn around based largely on the brave heart myth and labour incompetence under the hapless Gordon brown and then the unpopular Corbyn ( who basically lost Scotland).

Now the snp vote is seen almost as a patriotic act by some it will take some work to overturn this now deep seated position.
 
Redwurzel said:
Scottish public services are also subsidised by the rest of the UK through the Barnett formula so per head of population people living in Scotland receive more money for public services than the rest of the UK. I believe it was done politically in the late 1970s because Scots wanted an oil dividend from newly found North Sea Oil. However the net tax revenue from oil and gas is now quite lower that say in the 1980s.

List goes on.....set their own income tax rates, have water companies that were not privatised. There is certainly a certain level of independence already
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It's not a straight comparison though. Water supply in Scotland is in the public sector in Scotland, but not in England for example. And some of the expenditure is capital expense, so not providing any immediate benefit.

Also, Northern Ireland's per capita expenditure is higher than Scotland's, and so is London's.

By the time you analyse everything, there's probably not much difference between most areas, except for the East Midlands which does seem to suffer a bit.
 
Jedi boro said:
I hope so and I agree that labour need to start hitting back at their traditional heartland.

But my worry is that has the snp vote replaced the labour one as in Im an SNP voter always have been always will be mantra.

Sturgeon ( via salmon) has positioned a party that was once seen as a bunch of crack pots in arran sweaters with a handful of seats into the defacto choice of the Scottish left.

It’s an incredible turn around based largely on the brave heart myth and labour incompetence under the hapless Gordon brown and then the unpopular Corbyn ( who basically lost Scotland).

Now the snp vote is seen almost as a patriotic act by some it will take some work to overturn this now deep seated position.
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Mate they've done stuff like frozen rent increases. Absolutely no way labour are going to get anyone under the age of 30 to vote for them unless they match pledges like that. Will wait to see what starmer comes up with, but at the moment he's concerned with winning Tory votes not left wing votes.

Milliband lost Scotland to the Tories. Nothing to do with Corbyn, all he could do was chase an already bolted horse through the fields. When an alternative to the Tory cuts was needed milliband didn't provide one.

If SNP put up a candidate in my constituency I would consider voting for them ahead of labour.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Milliband lost Scotland to the Tories. Nothing to do with Corbyn, all he could do was chase an already bolted horse through the fields. When an alternative to the Tory cuts was needed milliband didn't provide one.
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True I forgot about Ed but my point was starmer suffers from the same bad press in Scotland as Corbyn he’s seen as too English to north London centric.

But it’s clear that since John smith era Labour dropped the ball on Scotland going from 3 seat to 48 is incredible.

I honestly think it would take a Scottish old school labour leader to even try and fight back this trend but they just don’t exist.
 
I still regard mhairi blacks result as the biggest in UK political history it was absolutely staggering

A teenage student to beat the head of the Scottish Labour Party.
 
Jedi boro said:
True I forgot about Ed but my point was starmer suffers from the same bad press in Scotland as Corbyn he’s seen as too English to north London centric.

But it’s clear that since John smith era Labour dropped the ball on Scotland going from 3 seat to 48 is incredible.

I honestly think it would take a Scottish old school labour leader to even try and fight back this trend but they just don’t exist.
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I think it's a circle labour can't square. It's either Scotland or the Tory voters. Can't have both.
 
Redwurzel said:
Scottish public services are also subsidised by the rest of the UK through the Barnett formula so per head of population people living in Scotland receive more money for public services than the rest of the UK. I believe it was done politically in the late 1970s because Scots wanted an oil dividend from newly found North Sea Oil. However the net tax revenue from oil and gas is now quite lower that say in the 1980s.

List goes on.....set their own income tax rates, have water companies that were not privatised. There is certainly a certain level of independence already

Voting wise there is hardcore 45% vote for the SNP, that is gnerally Left of centre and I don't think Labour will make progress in an election in the near future, because you need a lot votes in individual seats to overcome the 45% that is widely spread around Scotland

For example a urban seat would be typically 45% SNP, 30% Labour, 10% Liberal, 10% Conservative, 5% Green -

Rural - it would 45% SNP, 25% Conservative, 17% Liberal, 5% Labour, 8% Green

it would need an Alliance to defeat the SNP because of the way SNP support is quite evenly sporead and represents the only way to vote for total independence.
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Then why the fear of a referendum?
 
Nano said:
The problem seems to be that some people in Scotland see themselves as unique from the rest of the UK but they aren't. There are people all around the country that see themselves as different from the rest. London would probably love to break away and become a city state, they think they are paying for the rest of us. Liverpool think they are different from England and "Scouse not English" is a popular feeling in Liverpool, Cornwall see themselves as different, even places like Yorkshire do.
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Okay but the independence campaigns in places like Yorkshire and Cornwall are tiny. That's the difference. And it does make Scotland at least partly unqiue from the rest of the UK. Nowhere else in the UK is there an independence party getting the kinds of numbers Indeedido's quoting (even though he makes them sound small fry...)

indeedido said:
Even in the landslide victory the SNP achieved in the 2015 election, they did not make 50% of the Scottish vote.

In 2010 UK General election they got 19.9% of vote
In 2011 Scots Parliament election they got 45.4% of the vote.
In 2015 UK GE they got 49.9% of the vote. They have never got a majority, even when they won
In 2016 Scots Parliament they got 46.5% of the vote.
In 2017 UK GE they got 36.9% of the vote.
In 2019 UK GE they got 45% of the vote.
In 2021 Scots Parliament elections they got 47.7% of the vote
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Mebyon Kernow, the Cornish independence party, stood 1 candidate in 2019. They got 1,660 votes. 3% of the vote in their constituency.
 
A key point in this whole situation is that the court ruling was an outcome that the SNP fully expected, they're just weaponising it to try and build support for independence, as you'd expect given their reason for existing.

The Scottish Parliament has never had the powers to legislate for a unilateral referendum, there's no denial of something that they're legally entitled to.

You can say that they should be allowed a referendum, and I think that's a fair viewpoint if the majority of voters want one, but the current situation is the absolute standard in most countries and not some unique boot on the neck of Scotland.

The noise coming through the media right now is that the SNP weren't expecting the court ruling to come so quickly, as they expected the court to say they wouldn't rule on a theoretical and defer the judgement, allowing them another 6 months of campaigning on "IndyRef2023" before trying to pass a bill in Holyrood for the 2nd referendum, with the expectation that the Supreme Court would then say it was unconstitutional and they'd try and ride a wave of anger going in to the 2024/25 General Election.

Instead, they've been given a flat no, followed by fairly low number pro-Independence marches, and have had to contend with mass teaching strikes in Scotland being the big news the day after.
 
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