david baddiel - racist bullying & humiliation of Jason Lee

viv_andersons_nana said:
We’ve always known it was unacceptable. The difference now is the marginalised, the minority groups, have platforms from which to rightly point this stuff out. You can’t ‘get away with it’ any more.

Black people, gay people, trans people, whoever it may be, can call it out at the time whereas in the past they haven’t had that platform or opportunity.
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But its because they now have more of a platform that we are more aware of it. Back then, we weren't aware, or certainly not to anywhere near the same level. Hence the 'wokist' concept.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Baddiel is a talentless fool who weaponises anti-Semitism at every opportunity and once claimed that 29% of Corbyn supporters were anti-Semitic.
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* Ignoring the rest of your post, as I've not really got strong feelings on it *

He's really not talentless is he?

He's responsible for at least 2 of the most era defining comedies of the 90's and was part of the first comedy act to fill Wembley Arena, and Three Lions is also pretty prevalent in modern British culture.
 
atypical_boro said:
But its because they now have more of a platform that we are more aware of it. Back then, we weren't aware, or certainly not to anywhere near the same level. Hence the 'wokist' concept.
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We’ve been aware of it for decades but have chosen to ignore it or pretend it doesn’t matter. David Baddiel will have known full well what he was doing was wrong.

Ignorance is no excuse.
 
About 20 years ago I went to a fancy dress party and decided to go as a Mexican wearing a poncho, sombrero, carrying a guitar and applied make up to make my skin darker. At the time I don't recall thinking to myself that it could be offensive nor did anyone suggest anything to me that it could be. Is this a part of my past that I should be concerned about?
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
We’ve been aware of it for decades but have chosen to ignore it or pretend it doesn’t matter. David Baddiel will have known full well what he was doing was wrong.

Ignorance is no excuse.
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Well even if so, I think everyone also has to accept responsibility for making him a star then. And every other comedian who was blacking up and knowing it was wrong. I don't think you can solely put it on the comedian. If it wasn't 'funny' they wouldn't have done it, these were mainstream primetime comedians, not guys who'd been relegated to a handful of Right Wing comedy clubs.
 
Johnny Vincents Motorbike said:
took him a quarter of a century to apologise to Jason Lee for the harm he caused to his Mental Health and the ruination of his career for blackfacing and racist comment - Jasons family were also deeply affected..

david he has a new book out.

david he has a new tv programme - about racism, only this is special racism - in the tv programme he targets Dawn Butler MP, Dawn just happens to black - false prophet & charlatan is david.
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His book has been out ages
 
Johnny Vincents Motorbike said:
www.thetimes.co.uk

Jason Lee: I was violated on so many levels in David Baddiel’s sketches

The stare was chilling, anger filled Jason Lee’s eyes and his body language was as taut as garrotte wire. Every ounce of the 51-year-old’s being was focused on
www.thetimes.co.uk www.thetimes.co.uk



why attack Dawn Butler then ? - history repeating itself.

and it was a little bit more than 'getting on his back'
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He didn’t attack Dawn Butler He attacked what she said.
Dawn mentioned every single potentially oppressed minority apart from Jews.
It is worthy of mentioning.

When challenged, she, and her colleagues said ‘it was implicit that she meant Jews too’.
Make of that what you will
 
atypical_boro said:
Well even if so, I think everyone also has to accept responsibility for making him a star then. And every other comedian who was blacking up and knowing it was wrong. I don't think you can solely put it on the comedian. If it wasn't 'funny' they wouldn't have done it, these were mainstream primetime comedians, not guys who'd been relegated to a handful of Right Wing comedy clubs.
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I’m not putting it solely on him but I think it’s absolutely certain that he knew what he was doing was wrong and offensive. He just thought he could get away with it, which is maybe what others have thought too. Walliams and Lucas were doing it about 15 years ago, everyone I knew at the time knew categorically that that was wrong and offensive. Did it harm their careers? No it didn’t. But that’s where representation comes in.

Thankfully we have a wider spread of voices who can call this out and make people stop and think about what they’re doing. But those people have always actually been there, let’s not forget that. Black people(and some white people as well I imagine) were campaigning and speaking out about black face getting on for a century ago. Just because we chose to ignore it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, or make it untrue, or make it a ‘new’ thing.

People have been speaking up for decades and decades. Only now we’re not allowed or able to pretend they’re not there.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
I’m not putting it solely on him but I think it’s absolutely certain that he knew what he was doing was wrong and offensive. He just thought he could get away with it, which is maybe what others have thought too. Walliams and Lucas were doing it about 15 years ago, everyone I knew at the time that was wrong and offensive. Did it harm their careers? No it didn’t. But that’s where representation comes in.

Thankfully we have a wider spread of voices who can call this out and make people stop and think about what they’re doing. But those people have always actually been there, let’s not forget that. Black people(and some white people as well probably) were campaigning and speaking out about black face getting on for a century ago. Just because we chose to ignore it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, or make it untrue, or make it a ‘new’ thing. People have been speaking up for decades and decades.
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You could well be right there but, as he keeps saying, things have changed…. For the better.
Some ‘progressive people’ are really challenging themselves not to generalise.

I enjoyed his programme and read the book. There were some uncomfortable truths for me and, frankly, I’m still trying to process some of the things he has said.

In general tho - if people feel oppressed, frightened etc because of their race (in this case Jews) perhaps the onus is on us to help them feel better in the long run.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
I’m not putting it solely on him but I think it’s absolutely certain that he knew what he was doing was wrong and offensive. He just thought he could get away with it, which is maybe what others have thought too. Walliams and Lucas were doing it about 15 years ago, everyone I knew at the time knew categorically that that was wrong and offensive. Did it harm their careers? No it didn’t. But that’s where representation comes in.

Thankfully we have a wider spread of voices who can call this out and make people stop and think about what they’re doing. But those people have always actually been there, let’s not forget that. Black people(and some white people as well I imagine) were campaigning and speaking out about black face getting on for a century ago. Just because we chose to ignore it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, or make it untrue, or make it a ‘new’ thing.

People have been speaking up for decades and decades. Only now we’re not allowed or able to pretend they’re not there.
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I think we're not far away from agreeing but I think there is a difference between him knowing something was offensive and knowing something was wrong. I agree he knew it was offensive, but I don't know if he thought it was 'wrong'. There was a time when people didn't worry about people taking offence, that changed in the 2010s, as comedians used to take the view that someone being offended wasn't a big enough reason to abandon a joke. Comedy has changed, whether or not for the better is subjective and probably generational.

When I watch the Harry & Paul Mandela sketches I don't actually think they're categorically racist (there is a spectrum with these things), Mandela isn't really being made fun of and certainly not for being black. The joke is very much 'what would Mandela be like if he wasn't this saintly figure and a bit of a nutter' (his colour isn't made reference to). The blackface I don't think was used for any other reason than cos they wanted to impersonate Mandela and he happened to be black. Wouldn't be able to do that sketch now though, and nor would I suggest they should, because we know more about other people's views on it now. But I think comedians would say the same, if they'd known HOW bad the black community felt about it they'd have maybe thought twice.

I don't think its as clear cut as they thought they could just get away with it but knew it was abhorrent, just my opinion.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
People defending it FFS. He blacked up. There’s this defence of “it happened in the 90s, things have changed a lot since then,” well yeah they have but we knew it was wrong in the 90s well. And the 60s, 70s, 80s.

When Baddiel blacked up for the first time I actually learned about what it meant from our Mam. She used to tape Fantasy Football and we’d watch it on a Saturday morning, before going to the Boro matches. She gasped when Baddiel walked out in black face, I can still remember it clearly. I asked why and she just said “you shouldn’t do that, it’s not a nice thing to do,” which seems fairly tame but I was about 9 or 10.

It’s indefensible. The jokes about Jason Lee’s hairstyle, yeah whatever floats your boat I suppose, I laughed at the pineapple stuff when I was 9 or 10. But the black face is different, very different. It’s disgusting. It’s racism. And Jason Lee is the only person to emerge from any of this with any credit, so more power to him IMO.
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You could actually argue the pineapple thing was racist too. It's a hairstyle you would only really associate with black culture, so is the mocking of it racist? Quite possibly.
 
atypical_boro said:
I think we're not far away from agreeing but I think there is a difference between him knowing something was offensive and knowing something was wrong. I agree he knew it was offensive, but I don't know if he thought it was 'wrong'. There was a time when people didn't worry about people taking offence, that changed in the 2010s, as comedians used to take the view that someone being offended wasn't a big enough reason to abandon a joke. Comedy has changed, whether or not for the better is subjective and probably generational.

When I watch the Harry & Paul Mandela sketches I don't actually think they're categorically racist (there is a spectrum with these things), Mandela isn't really being made fun of and certainly not for being black. The joke is very much 'what would Mandela be like if he wasn't this saintly figure and a bit of a nutter' (his colour isn't made reference to). The blackface I don't think was used for any other reason than cos they wanted to impersonate Mandela and he happened to be black. Wouldn't be able to do that sketch now though, and nor would I suggest they should, because we know more about other people's views on it now. But I think comedians would say the same, if they'd known HOW bad the black community felt about it they'd have maybe thought twice.

I don't think its as clear cut as they thought they could just get away with it but knew it was abhorrent, just my opinion.
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I broadly agree with you. But I do think there was malice in the Jason Lee material. They were laughing at his hair, his football ability, and when Baddiel decided to black up that became part of the joke as well IMO.

I actually think they’d referenced his hairstyle first, which was then turned into a song - I think it was at Stamford Bridge, “he’s got a pineapple on his head,” weird how my memory holds onto this stuff, when Lee was running on as a substitute - which they mentioned in the next show and then the running joke started. Fans ar grounds started singing it. A few weeks later, Baddiel blacked up for a sketch.

I just can’t believe that a seemingly intelligent bloke like Baddiel didn’t know what he was doing was wrong. I mean, sitting in the chair while they put the make up on. FFS. If our Mam on a council estate in Park End knows it’s wrong and knows to tell her kids it’s wrong, surely he would know as well. I’d love to know what he’d have told his kids at the time he did if they’d been 9 or 10 and asked him why he was doing it.
 
festa5 said:
You could actually argue the pineapple thing was racist too. It's a hairstyle you would only really associate with black culture, so is the mocking of it racist? Quite possibly.
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You probably could argue that TBF. You’d have to ask Baddiel what his intention was with that.
 
atypical_boro said:
Whilst these are wise words from Skinner (although that quote doesn't say 'racist'), everyone who made FFL such a big show at the time by watching is guilty to a degree. It was 'uncomfortable' and that was the point, things that people find (or found) hilarious are rarely 100% comfortable for every single person on the planet. There was very little outrage at the time, and certainly no 'cancelling' etc.

That behaviour was widely accepted by society, so its not just Baddiel and Skinner who should feel bad. They also targeted lots of people including Saint and Greavsie and Pele himself, to a degree it looks as if its seen as 'worse' because Jason Lee was actually a very mediocre player (but that's not actually their fault).
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St and Greavsie were guests on the show after their sketches.
beardsley was made to look like quasi modo, not much different to how stupid Athletico mince make him out to be, it’s funny. Le Tissier took some grief over his physical appearance but was on the show a few times.

many players were given a tough rub but Jason Lee was the worst.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
I broadly agree with you. But I do think there was malice in the Jason Lee material. They were laughing at his hair, his football ability, and when Baddiel decided to black up that became part of the joke as well IMO.

I actually think they’d referenced his hairstyle first, which was then turned into a song - I think it was at Stamford Bridge, “he’s got a pineapple on his head,” weird how my memory holds onto this stuff, when Lee was running on as a substitute - which they mentioned in the next show and then the running joke started. Fans ar grounds started singing it. A few weeks later, Baddiel blacked up for a sketch.

I just can’t believe that a seemingly intelligent bloke like Baddiel didn’t know what he was doing was wrong. I mean, sitting in the chair while they put the make up on. FFS. If our Mam on a council estate in Park End knows it’s wrong and knows to tell her kids it’s wrong, surely he would know as well. I’d love to know what he’d have told his kids at the time he did if they’d been 9 or 10 and asked him why he was doing it.
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I am pretty certain the first mention of Jason Lee on the show wasn't related to anything other than him being a bit crap, it was the 'Pele is sh1te' segment of the show ('he was worse than Jason Lee') and then it all sort of spiralled from there. It definitely went a bit far, but as others have said, as a teenager I was wholly on board with it and so were lots of adults at the time (not all of whom I'd say were advocating racism etc).
 
Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants said:
St and Greavsie were guests on the show after their sketches.
beardsley was made to look like quasi modo, not much different to how stupid Athletico mince make him out to be, it’s funny. Le Tissier took some grief over his physical appearance but was on the show a few times.

many players were given a tough rub but Jason Lee was the worst.
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They were but have you seen Saint and Greavsie's appearance back recently? They were visibly annoyed about it and only went on to take them to task.
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
* Ignoring the rest of your post, as I've not really got strong feelings on it *

He's really not talentless is he?

He's responsible for at least 2 of the most era defining comedies of the 90's and was part of the first comedy act to fill Wembley Arena, and Three Lions is also pretty prevalent in modern British culture.
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I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but here is an example of his era defining comedy from the 90's, where he talks about mentally disturbed nutters in a film, followed by the people he was actually talking about.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1527356926132047875
 
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