Are we turning the Ukrainian people into targets?

MolteniArcore

MolteniArcore

Well-known member
Was listening to LBC earlier and a caller made a point I had not considered before.

He said that ultimately Russia will take Ukraine and it's obvious that all The West are prepared to do is supply them with weapons. These weapons make the fight longer and increase the ferocity of Russian aggression. This in turn will cause far greater Ukrainian deaths.

I don't necessarily agree but I can see the point he is making which brings me to the main question that non of us know the answer to: What is The West's end game?

- If Russia take Ukraine do we fund the forces fighting to take it back?
- Do we accept it and keep sanctions on Russia?
- Do we go in and help?
- Do we enforce a no fly zone?

Am I daft for thinking that this might be another conflict where we have no idea what our plan or end game is? And in the meantime we are letting the Ukrainians be cannon fodder for the Russians? And if this is right should we go in now?

I think maybe the biggest question we are trying to decide is would Putin launch an attack on NATO if we got involved. If we think that's no we'd surely be in by now. And maybe that's what we are afraid of and that's why we are say back watching the Ukrainians die as they fight for their country. jesus, we won't even let them into our country as refugees.

Maybe Putin counted on this and knew we wouldn't get involved. After all sanctions aren't stopping him.
 
I think the point is that many would rather die a free Ukrainian than live as a Russian serf and the military help will enable them to sustain a long resistance.

I would say yes to your first 2 points and no to the last 2.

If NATO gets involved then we have to fear the nuclear option being used.

Also don't underestimate the influence inside Russia against the war which will only increase as time goes on.
 
MolteniArcore said:
Was listening to LBC earlier and a caller made a point I had not considered before.

He said that ultimately Russia will take Ukraine and it's obvious that all The West are prepared to do is supply them with weapons. These weapons make the fight longer and increase the ferocity of Russian aggression. This in turn will cause far greater Ukrainian deaths.

I don't necessarily agree but I can see the point he is making which brings me to the main question that non of us know the answer to: What is The West's end game?

- If Russia take Ukraine do we fund the forces fighting to take it back?
- Do we accept it and keep sanctions on Russia?
- Do we go in and help?
- Do we enforce a no fly zone?

Am I daft for thinking that this might be another conflict where we have no idea what our plan or end game is? And in the meantime we are letting the Ukrainians be cannon fodder for the Russians? And if this is right should we go in now?

I think maybe the biggest question we are trying to decide is would Putin launch an attack on NATO if we got involved. If we think that's no we'd surely be in by now. And maybe that's what we are afraid of and that's why we are say back watching the Ukrainians die as they fight for their country. jesus, we won't even let them into our country as refugees.

Maybe Putin counted on this and knew we wouldn't get involved. After all sanctions aren't stopping him.
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I think a more interesting idea is the possibility of Russia being ‘cancelled’ ie any product, service and communication is pulled from them. Their identity taken away as far as Russian words that are used and even the word ‘Russia’ being used to describe the country.

Putin creating such a stink that no one associated with Russia is accepted or allowed to participate in the worldwide community. Athletes, musicians, businessmen all shunned. Given the worldwide cold shoulder.
 
MolteniArcore said:
Am I daft for thinking that this might be another conflict where we have no idea what our plan or end game is? And in the meantime we are letting the Ukrainians be cannon fodder for the Russians? And if this is right should we go in now?
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It's not daft. I don't think there is a good option/out that can be taken from outside of Russia. I don't know what Putin is expecting. He can't possibly think that if he is successful in Ukraine that we'll just carry on as if nothing happened. He must know that long term he is no longer viable as a world leader. There will be no cooperation with him from Western leaders.

Are we just delaying an inevitable war by staying out of it now? Possibly. We can't do nothing otherwise every country will think they can have a go at another country with no consequences hence the sanctions and weapons for Ukraine but we can't do something like help the Ukrainians on the ground/air because that risks escalation.

It's an impossible situation and one that can probably only be solved by Putin being removed from within and a new regime, completely segregated from the existing power structure, running the country, returning any territory they have gained in Ukraine and making reparations.
 
MolteniArcore said:
Was listening to LBC earlier and a caller made a point I had not considered before.

He said that ultimately Russia will take Ukraine and it's obvious that all The West are prepared to do is supply them with weapons. These weapons make the fight longer and increase the ferocity of Russian aggression. This in turn will cause far greater Ukrainian deaths.

I don't necessarily agree but I can see the point he is making which brings me to the main question that non of us know the answer to: What is The West's end game?

- If Russia take Ukraine do we fund the forces fighting to take it back?
- Do we accept it and keep sanctions on Russia?
- Do we go in and help?
- Do we enforce a no fly zone?

Am I daft for thinking that this might be another conflict where we have no idea what our plan or end game is? And in the meantime we are letting the Ukrainians be cannon fodder for the Russians? And if this is right should we go in now?

I think maybe the biggest question we are trying to decide is would Putin launch an attack on NATO if we got involved. If we think that's no we'd surely be in by now. And maybe that's what we are afraid of and that's why we are say back watching the Ukrainians die as they fight for their country. jesus, we won't even let them into our country as refugees.

Maybe Putin counted on this and knew we wouldn't get involved. After all sanctions aren't stopping him.
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That’s a wrong view and one that plays into Russians hands of blaming the west that this somehow our fault.

As others have said the Ukrainians are a proud NATION and it’s their decision to fight.

As for what is our end game sadly that’s not our decision to make.

There is absolutely no way we will “go in” either as that is the end of everything.
 
As for the question of what Is motivating putin then that’s easy it is the basest most visceral emotion of them all vengeance.

Ukraine never danced to his tune and he is out to make them pay for it.

Now that is really scary
 
zorro_mfc said:
As for the question of what Is motivating putin then that’s easy it is the basest most visceral emotion of them all vengeance.

Ukraine never danced to his tune and he is out to make them pay for it.

Now that is really scary
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It couldn't possibly be anything else but vengeance.

It makes no sense at all to me for Russia to destroy the Ukraine and inherit a land that will be pretty much totally devastated
and will need to be rebuilt from the ground up.
How or where are they going to find the money or the people to rebuild when the Russian economy will be at its lowest ebb
and will be for many years to come if the worlds sanctions are upheld ?
 
InglebyUTB said:
Anyone who suggests NATO enforcing a “no fly zone” either doesn’t understand what it is, or is actually insane.
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I was thinking about this today quite a bit. It is obviously war in Europe as one would imagine that if we shot down a Russian plane they would retaliate.

But part of me still thinks, possibly insanely, that is Putin carrying on because we are doing nothing and will continue to do so until we do something militarily?

It's a massive gamble though. If NATO get involved one would think that Russia know then would be in the clarts so the nukes may well be quickly called upon.

No matter what we do or don't do the consequences are appalling.
 
zorro_mfc said:
That’s a wrong view and one that plays into Russians hands of blaming the west that this somehow our fault.
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Maybe blaming The West for prolonging the war but not for starting it. There is only one person to blame there. Putin.

There is no easy answer is there? Maybe, right now, there are only two choices: Arm and help the Ukrainians or do nothing and let Russia roll them over. The problem is as it stands both choices likely end up with Russia taking over large swathes of Ukraine unless somehow, against all the odds Ukraine can hold out. I bloody well hope they do.
 
Perhaps a plastic nuclear rocket fired from a catapult would not set off Russian retaliation nuclear launches.

build it and they will come
 
MolteniArcore said:
I was thinking about this today quite a bit. It is obviously war in Europe as one would imagine that if we shot down a Russian plane they would retaliate.

But part of me still thinks, possibly insanely, that is Putin carrying on because we are doing nothing and will continue to do so until we do something militarily?

It's a massive gamble though. If NATO get involved one would think that Russia know then would be in the clarts so the nukes may well be quickly called upon.

No matter what we do or don't do the consequences are appalling.
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The moment one nato bullet is fired then everything changes for the world. As horrendous as this is and make no mistake it’s devastating but this will get so much bigger and so much worse if that were to happen.
 
No but the government are turning the UK into target number 1. A missile on the UK does not directly affect mainland Europe or USA but would be a strategic first strike warning to NATO
 
coluka said:
No but the government are turning the UK into target number 1. A missile on the UK does not directly affect mainland Europe or USA but would be a strategic first strike warning to NATO
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What makes you think that? An attack on the UK would immediately provoke a response from NATO under article 5. Even if for some reason NATO decided not to retaliate then the UK would do so.

The most likely first target outside of Ukraine would be a non aligned nation. Georgia potentially as they are now asking for EU membership. Unless Putin genuinely wants to end the world because he has lost and wants to take everyone with him, he would not make a first strike on a NATO nation.
 
rbmfc1985 said:
What makes you think that? An attack on the UK would immediately provoke a response from NATO under article 5. Even if for some reason NATO decided not to retaliate then the UK would do so.

The most likely first target outside of Ukraine would be a non aligned nation. Georgia potentially as they are now asking for EU membership. Unless Putin genuinely wants to end the world because he has lost and wants to take everyone with him, he would not make a first strike on a NATO nation.
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I am talking nuclear weapons. In your opinion, sadly hope, not fact. We are allowing the oligarchs to remove their money and as such the reason why they would not destroy our country. Just an opinion, but a move to the highlands is now a possibility. All bets are off sadly.
 
rbmfc1985 said:
What makes you think that? An attack on the UK would immediately provoke a response from NATO under article 5. Even if for some reason NATO decided not to retaliate then the UK would do so.

The most likely first target outside of Ukraine would be a non aligned nation. Georgia potentially as they are now asking for EU membership. Unless Putin genuinely wants to end the world because he has lost and wants to take everyone with him, he would not make a first strike on a NATO nation.
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Ireland?
 
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