I have truly mixed feelings over derby...

Sorry Adi I am asking loads of different questions. There are loads of angles to it. I don't think Gibson is purely looking at it from the known public facts of the claim we have lodged with the EFL. I'm guessing I see justification in his behaviour based on how others are behaving towards him (based on what Rob did say about phone call), that the administrator is riling up their fans with behind closed doors briefings, and the dogs abuse being spouted towards him and the club.

You make very good legal points and argue he is being childish almost. The former is your area and you are more likely to be right than me.

For the latter, this is football. Other than the administration process it is all childish. But it matters. And integrity matters. My backing of Gibson is down to believing he is doing the right things for the right reasons even if he is just shooting from the him.

Like I said previously I love your input and knowledge and passion. I could talk this through all night happily over a drink.
 
Sorry Adi I am asking loads of different questions. There are loads of angles to it. I don't think Gibson is purely looking at it from the known public facts of the claim we have lodged with the EFL. I'm guessing I see justification in his behaviour based on how others are behaving towards him (based on what Rob did say about phone call), that the administrator is riling up their fans with behind closed doors briefings, and the dogs abuse being spouted towards him and the club.

You make very good legal points and argue he is being childish almost. The former is your area and you are more likely to be right than me.

For the latter, this is football. Other than the administration process it is all childish. But it matters. And integrity matters. My backing of Gibson is down to believing he is doing the right things for the right reasons even if he is just shooting from the him.

Like I said previously I love your input and knowledge and passion. I could talk this through all night happily over a drink.

Any time!

No apology necessary, I realise mine won’t be a popular opinion!
 
This is the best article I've seen on the subject, and perfectly explains the opinion as supported by Adis points that the claims are spurious, and more importantly why we come out of all this so bad.

MARTIN SAMUEL: Derby are on the brink of extinction and had 21 points deducted - isn't that enough now? Middlesbrough and Wycombe lawsuits are based on playing fantasy football
By Martin Samuel - Sport for the Daily Mail

Championship side Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation
Rams' past financial misconduct has seen them punished with points deduction
Middlesbrough and Wycombe are taking legal action over potential lost revenue
But their case is built on fantasy seasons and is a result of mishandling by the EFL
What stopped Middlesbrough becoming a Premier League club at the end of the 2018-19 season? Derby, apparently.

Not the six straight games they lost between March 9 and April 6. Not taking one point from a possible 21 at a crucial stage in the season. Not losing home and away to Nottingham Forest who finished ninth. Not losing at home to Bristol City (eighth), Sheffield Wednesday (12th) or Preston (14th).

No, it was all down to Derby, whose cheating of the EFL’s financial fair play rules — the ambition tax, as it should be known — meant that they claimed sixth place by one point from Middlesbrough, who came seventh, therefore missing out on the play-offs, which they no doubt would have won.


Middlesbrough just missed out on a place in the Championship play-offs to Derby in 2019

Derby County are on the brink of falling into liquidation within the next few days

Victory must be presumed if Middlesbrough’s case against them is to be worth anywhere near the £40million compensation widely reported. A failed play-off campaign accrues nowhere near that. Forbes do not breathlessly discuss the fortune from merely getting into the play-offs.


It is winning that is football’s equivalent of Willy Wonka’s golden ticket. For Derby to owe Middlesbrough any figure worth having, it is the Premier League they must have been denied, not the opportunity to slump forlornly on the Wembley pitch while another team gallivants with joy.


For Middlesbrough’s case to succeed, then, certain assumptions must be made. The first is that they would have done something over two legs that they hadn’t managed all season: namely beat Leeds. If Middlesbrough had taken Derby’s spot their play-off semi-final opponents would have been Leeds, who finished third, nine points ahead. And Middlesbrough’s results against Marcelo Bielsa’s side that season were a 0-0 draw at Elland Road, and 1-1 at home. So they didn’t lose, but nor did they win.

So, having beaten Leeds — who, by the way, defeated Middlesbrough home and away the following season, 5-0 on aggregate — only Aston Villa stood between Middlesbrough and the Premier League. And it’s a good job these meetings are taking place in the realms of the unknown because here on earth when Villa played Middlesbrough that season they won 3-0, both home and away.

The league table, and results, suggest Villa were a much better team than Middlesbrough at the time. We can never know what might have happened in a third meeting, which will be Middlesbrough’s case; but we could make a calculated guess; certainly if the very future of Derby depends on it.


Leeds United defeated Middlesbrough home and away during the 2019-20 season
And it does. The club is looking at potential liquidation and any sale is being complicated by lawsuits from Middlesbrough and, incredibly, Wycombe Wanderers — the lucky losers of the pandemic. Wycombe also claim that their season, 2020-21, was the work of another club, and they would have maintained Championship status were it not for Derby’s cheating. This ignores their failure to win a match until October 31, or record more than two wins before December 29.

Equally, Wycombe only arrived in the Championship by an arbitrary calculation that defies all reason, the great beneficiaries of 3.7 points for a win.

In 2020, when the EFL curtailed the League One season due to the pandemic, they also decided to maintain promotion and relegation. But with no matches being played, they turned to the realms of fantasy. League positions would be settled on points per game. The total number of points for each club would be divided by the games they had played, and used to make a calculation across 46 matches.

Using PPG, Wycombe, who had a game in hand, jumped from eighth to third, based on 1.73 points per game. Yet their game in hand was away at top of the table Coventry, who were averaging 1.97 points per game. That made the imaginary Coventry versus Wycombe a 3.7-point match. Yet when Wycombe’s promotion rivals visited Coventry and played a real game with real footballers, they could only receive three points, maximum.


Along with Middlesbrough, Wycombe Wanderers are filing lawsuits against Derby
One might think, then, that in the circumstances Wycombe would consider themselves lucky to get a crack at the Championship and accept their fate — just as the teams they leapfrogged in 2020 accepted theirs. But no. Wycombe have a grand sense of entitlement and think they went down because Derby cheated, not because they were over-promoted by an EFL whim, so want paying out, too.

ADVERTISEMENT

Interestingly, if League One was curtailed now and PPG enforced, Wycombe, who are top, would be overtaken by second-placed Wigan and fourth-placed Rotherham and demoted to the play-offs. Fascinating to hear their thoughts if that happened.

These lawsuits matter because, as specious as they may appear, if successful they could count as football debts, requiring priority repayment. Quantuma, Derby’s administrators, fear if that were the case, the value of the settlement would be almost as big as the entire value of the club.

No buyer is prepared to move until this is resolved. And without a saviour Derby could be just a week from liquidation. Where are the EFL in this? Incredibly, their main involvement is alleged to be a deal with Middlesbrough to stop Steve Gibson suing them over failure to regulate Derby efficiently. This may actually have paved the way for Middlesbrough to sue Derby instead.

Of course Middlesbrough and Wycombe are also emboldened in their mission to prove a football club is not responsible for its results or league position by the precedent set when Sheffield United sued West Ham.


Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation as they seek a new buyer
Lord Griffiths ruled that Sheffield United did not go down because they scored fewer goals away from home, or lost more away games than any other team in the Premier League in 2006-07, and they didn’t go down because they failed to avoid defeat by Wigan on the final day of the season.

Winning just two games before November 28 was incidental as was a run of two wins, two draws and seven defeats in their last 11 matches, eight points from 33. No, Griffiths decided, Sheffield United were relegated because West Ham hid paperwork regarding Carlos Tevez. West Ham paid compensation of £10m, which Sheffield United invested wisely on falling through another division.

So here we are. One imagines football knows Griffiths made a rogue decision because in 14 years nobody has sought to use its precedent. Until now. So this isn’t merely a little squabble between faraway clubs of which we know nothing. If Middlesbrough and Wycombe are allowed to replay entire seasons as fantasy, one day we could lose some of English football’s most iconic moments, such as Sergio Aguero’s title-winning goal. Bird & Bird, an international law firm, are currently revisiting all the historic FFP claims against Manchester City, at the request of the Premier League, under pressure from rival clubs.

We know the end game: to clip City’s wings, beneath the guise of preventing related-party sponsorships at Newcastle. In truth, few are greatly worried about Newcastle for now — they might not even be in the Premier League next season — but City are a proven threat.


Middlesbrough owner Steve Gibson (centre) is taking legal action against Derby County
Now, if the Premier League can prove financial wrongdoing where UEFA failed, and if Derby end up responsible for Middlesbrough’s continued presence in the Championship, and Wycombe’s return to League One, who might come to claim Manchester City’s titles in 2011-12 or 2013-14? And won’t that be a delight; the same asterisk- ridden roll of honour that distinguishes Italian football?

Derby broke the rules, we know that. Yet nobody can argue they have not been punished. They have had 21 points deducted and stand on the brink of extinction. At what point is enough enough?

Earlier this week the EFL issued a statement explaining their stance on Derby. It ran to 2,058 words and included answers to such grave enquiries as: ‘Does the EFL have a vendetta against Derby County?’

‘The EFL has no vendetta against any of its member clubs,’ it was earnestly explained. To which it might be argued that if you’ve got to clarify, as a nurturing administrative body, that you are not engaged in what can be defined as anything from ‘a prolonged and bitter quarrel or campaign’ to ‘a blood feud’ with one of your founder member clubs, you might want to look at your own processes. Equally, nothing shrieks top governance like an important statement being released at 9.31pm on a Monday.

Maybe this is football’s future. Sue your way to success. Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby.
 
This is the best article I've seen on the subject, and perfectly explains the opinion as supported by Adis points that the claims are spurious, and more importantly why we come out of all this so bad.

MARTIN SAMUEL: Derby are on the brink of extinction and had 21 points deducted - isn't that enough now? Middlesbrough and Wycombe lawsuits are based on playing fantasy football
By Martin Samuel - Sport for the Daily Mail

Championship side Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation
Rams' past financial misconduct has seen them punished with points deduction
Middlesbrough and Wycombe are taking legal action over potential lost revenue
But their case is built on fantasy seasons and is a result of mishandling by the EFL
What stopped Middlesbrough becoming a Premier League club at the end of the 2018-19 season? Derby, apparently.

Not the six straight games they lost between March 9 and April 6. Not taking one point from a possible 21 at a crucial stage in the season. Not losing home and away to Nottingham Forest who finished ninth. Not losing at home to Bristol City (eighth), Sheffield Wednesday (12th) or Preston (14th).

No, it was all down to Derby, whose cheating of the EFL’s financial fair play rules — the ambition tax, as it should be known — meant that they claimed sixth place by one point from Middlesbrough, who came seventh, therefore missing out on the play-offs, which they no doubt would have won.


Middlesbrough just missed out on a place in the Championship play-offs to Derby in 2019

Derby County are on the brink of falling into liquidation within the next few days

Victory must be presumed if Middlesbrough’s case against them is to be worth anywhere near the £40million compensation widely reported. A failed play-off campaign accrues nowhere near that. Forbes do not breathlessly discuss the fortune from merely getting into the play-offs.


It is winning that is football’s equivalent of Willy Wonka’s golden ticket. For Derby to owe Middlesbrough any figure worth having, it is the Premier League they must have been denied, not the opportunity to slump forlornly on the Wembley pitch while another team gallivants with joy.


For Middlesbrough’s case to succeed, then, certain assumptions must be made. The first is that they would have done something over two legs that they hadn’t managed all season: namely beat Leeds. If Middlesbrough had taken Derby’s spot their play-off semi-final opponents would have been Leeds, who finished third, nine points ahead. And Middlesbrough’s results against Marcelo Bielsa’s side that season were a 0-0 draw at Elland Road, and 1-1 at home. So they didn’t lose, but nor did they win.

So, having beaten Leeds — who, by the way, defeated Middlesbrough home and away the following season, 5-0 on aggregate — only Aston Villa stood between Middlesbrough and the Premier League. And it’s a good job these meetings are taking place in the realms of the unknown because here on earth when Villa played Middlesbrough that season they won 3-0, both home and away.

The league table, and results, suggest Villa were a much better team than Middlesbrough at the time. We can never know what might have happened in a third meeting, which will be Middlesbrough’s case; but we could make a calculated guess; certainly if the very future of Derby depends on it.


Leeds United defeated Middlesbrough home and away during the 2019-20 season
And it does. The club is looking at potential liquidation and any sale is being complicated by lawsuits from Middlesbrough and, incredibly, Wycombe Wanderers — the lucky losers of the pandemic. Wycombe also claim that their season, 2020-21, was the work of another club, and they would have maintained Championship status were it not for Derby’s cheating. This ignores their failure to win a match until October 31, or record more than two wins before December 29.

Equally, Wycombe only arrived in the Championship by an arbitrary calculation that defies all reason, the great beneficiaries of 3.7 points for a win.

In 2020, when the EFL curtailed the League One season due to the pandemic, they also decided to maintain promotion and relegation. But with no matches being played, they turned to the realms of fantasy. League positions would be settled on points per game. The total number of points for each club would be divided by the games they had played, and used to make a calculation across 46 matches.

Using PPG, Wycombe, who had a game in hand, jumped from eighth to third, based on 1.73 points per game. Yet their game in hand was away at top of the table Coventry, who were averaging 1.97 points per game. That made the imaginary Coventry versus Wycombe a 3.7-point match. Yet when Wycombe’s promotion rivals visited Coventry and played a real game with real footballers, they could only receive three points, maximum.


Along with Middlesbrough, Wycombe Wanderers are filing lawsuits against Derby
One might think, then, that in the circumstances Wycombe would consider themselves lucky to get a crack at the Championship and accept their fate — just as the teams they leapfrogged in 2020 accepted theirs. But no. Wycombe have a grand sense of entitlement and think they went down because Derby cheated, not because they were over-promoted by an EFL whim, so want paying out, too.

ADVERTISEMENT

Interestingly, if League One was curtailed now and PPG enforced, Wycombe, who are top, would be overtaken by second-placed Wigan and fourth-placed Rotherham and demoted to the play-offs. Fascinating to hear their thoughts if that happened.

These lawsuits matter because, as specious as they may appear, if successful they could count as football debts, requiring priority repayment. Quantuma, Derby’s administrators, fear if that were the case, the value of the settlement would be almost as big as the entire value of the club.

No buyer is prepared to move until this is resolved. And without a saviour Derby could be just a week from liquidation. Where are the EFL in this? Incredibly, their main involvement is alleged to be a deal with Middlesbrough to stop Steve Gibson suing them over failure to regulate Derby efficiently. This may actually have paved the way for Middlesbrough to sue Derby instead.

Of course Middlesbrough and Wycombe are also emboldened in their mission to prove a football club is not responsible for its results or league position by the precedent set when Sheffield United sued West Ham.


Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation as they seek a new buyer
Lord Griffiths ruled that Sheffield United did not go down because they scored fewer goals away from home, or lost more away games than any other team in the Premier League in 2006-07, and they didn’t go down because they failed to avoid defeat by Wigan on the final day of the season.

Winning just two games before November 28 was incidental as was a run of two wins, two draws and seven defeats in their last 11 matches, eight points from 33. No, Griffiths decided, Sheffield United were relegated because West Ham hid paperwork regarding Carlos Tevez. West Ham paid compensation of £10m, which Sheffield United invested wisely on falling through another division.

So here we are. One imagines football knows Griffiths made a rogue decision because in 14 years nobody has sought to use its precedent. Until now. So this isn’t merely a little squabble between faraway clubs of which we know nothing. If Middlesbrough and Wycombe are allowed to replay entire seasons as fantasy, one day we could lose some of English football’s most iconic moments, such as Sergio Aguero’s title-winning goal. Bird & Bird, an international law firm, are currently revisiting all the historic FFP claims against Manchester City, at the request of the Premier League, under pressure from rival clubs.

We know the end game: to clip City’s wings, beneath the guise of preventing related-party sponsorships at Newcastle. In truth, few are greatly worried about Newcastle for now — they might not even be in the Premier League next season — but City are a proven threat.


Middlesbrough owner Steve Gibson (centre) is taking legal action against Derby County
Now, if the Premier League can prove financial wrongdoing where UEFA failed, and if Derby end up responsible for Middlesbrough’s continued presence in the Championship, and Wycombe’s return to League One, who might come to claim Manchester City’s titles in 2011-12 or 2013-14? And won’t that be a delight; the same asterisk- ridden roll of honour that distinguishes Italian football?

Derby broke the rules, we know that. Yet nobody can argue they have not been punished. They have had 21 points deducted and stand on the brink of extinction. At what point is enough enough?

Earlier this week the EFL issued a statement explaining their stance on Derby. It ran to 2,058 words and included answers to such grave enquiries as: ‘Does the EFL have a vendetta against Derby County?’

‘The EFL has no vendetta against any of its member clubs,’ it was earnestly explained. To which it might be argued that if you’ve got to clarify, as a nurturing administrative body, that you are not engaged in what can be defined as anything from ‘a prolonged and bitter quarrel or campaign’ to ‘a blood feud’ with one of your founder member clubs, you might want to look at your own processes. Equally, nothing shrieks top governance like an important statement being released at 9.31pm on a Monday.

Maybe this is football’s future. Sue your way to success. Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby.
Apologies - I just finished posting this on the other Derby thread - but it took me about 40 mins between cups of T.(y)
The only sentence worth reading is the last one:


"Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby".
 
Really does hit the nail on the head doesn't it?

They've turned a boro v efl, derby v efl situation into a boro v derby one through their own incompetence, and frankly cowardice. Now their policy is we are just going to sit back and watch. Disgrace.
 
This is the best article I've seen on the subject, and perfectly explains the opinion as supported by Adis points that the claims are spurious, and more importantly why we come out of all this so bad.

MARTIN SAMUEL: Derby are on the brink of extinction and had 21 points deducted - isn't that enough now? Middlesbrough and Wycombe lawsuits are based on playing fantasy football
By Martin Samuel - Sport for the Daily Mail

Championship side Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation
Rams' past financial misconduct has seen them punished with points deduction
Middlesbrough and Wycombe are taking legal action over potential lost revenue
But their case is built on fantasy seasons and is a result of mishandling by the EFL
What stopped Middlesbrough becoming a Premier League club at the end of the 2018-19 season? Derby, apparently.

Not the six straight games they lost between March 9 and April 6. Not taking one point from a possible 21 at a crucial stage in the season. Not losing home and away to Nottingham Forest who finished ninth. Not losing at home to Bristol City (eighth), Sheffield Wednesday (12th) or Preston (14th).

No, it was all down to Derby, whose cheating of the EFL’s financial fair play rules — the ambition tax, as it should be known — meant that they claimed sixth place by one point from Middlesbrough, who came seventh, therefore missing out on the play-offs, which they no doubt would have won.


Middlesbrough just missed out on a place in the Championship play-offs to Derby in 2019

Derby County are on the brink of falling into liquidation within the next few days

Victory must be presumed if Middlesbrough’s case against them is to be worth anywhere near the £40million compensation widely reported. A failed play-off campaign accrues nowhere near that. Forbes do not breathlessly discuss the fortune from merely getting into the play-offs.


It is winning that is football’s equivalent of Willy Wonka’s golden ticket. For Derby to owe Middlesbrough any figure worth having, it is the Premier League they must have been denied, not the opportunity to slump forlornly on the Wembley pitch while another team gallivants with joy.


For Middlesbrough’s case to succeed, then, certain assumptions must be made. The first is that they would have done something over two legs that they hadn’t managed all season: namely beat Leeds. If Middlesbrough had taken Derby’s spot their play-off semi-final opponents would have been Leeds, who finished third, nine points ahead. And Middlesbrough’s results against Marcelo Bielsa’s side that season were a 0-0 draw at Elland Road, and 1-1 at home. So they didn’t lose, but nor did they win.

So, having beaten Leeds — who, by the way, defeated Middlesbrough home and away the following season, 5-0 on aggregate — only Aston Villa stood between Middlesbrough and the Premier League. And it’s a good job these meetings are taking place in the realms of the unknown because here on earth when Villa played Middlesbrough that season they won 3-0, both home and away.

The league table, and results, suggest Villa were a much better team than Middlesbrough at the time. We can never know what might have happened in a third meeting, which will be Middlesbrough’s case; but we could make a calculated guess; certainly if the very future of Derby depends on it.


Leeds United defeated Middlesbrough home and away during the 2019-20 season
And it does. The club is looking at potential liquidation and any sale is being complicated by lawsuits from Middlesbrough and, incredibly, Wycombe Wanderers — the lucky losers of the pandemic. Wycombe also claim that their season, 2020-21, was the work of another club, and they would have maintained Championship status were it not for Derby’s cheating. This ignores their failure to win a match until October 31, or record more than two wins before December 29.

Equally, Wycombe only arrived in the Championship by an arbitrary calculation that defies all reason, the great beneficiaries of 3.7 points for a win.

In 2020, when the EFL curtailed the League One season due to the pandemic, they also decided to maintain promotion and relegation. But with no matches being played, they turned to the realms of fantasy. League positions would be settled on points per game. The total number of points for each club would be divided by the games they had played, and used to make a calculation across 46 matches.

Using PPG, Wycombe, who had a game in hand, jumped from eighth to third, based on 1.73 points per game. Yet their game in hand was away at top of the table Coventry, who were averaging 1.97 points per game. That made the imaginary Coventry versus Wycombe a 3.7-point match. Yet when Wycombe’s promotion rivals visited Coventry and played a real game with real footballers, they could only receive three points, maximum.


Along with Middlesbrough, Wycombe Wanderers are filing lawsuits against Derby
One might think, then, that in the circumstances Wycombe would consider themselves lucky to get a crack at the Championship and accept their fate — just as the teams they leapfrogged in 2020 accepted theirs. But no. Wycombe have a grand sense of entitlement and think they went down because Derby cheated, not because they were over-promoted by an EFL whim, so want paying out, too.

ADVERTISEMENT

Interestingly, if League One was curtailed now and PPG enforced, Wycombe, who are top, would be overtaken by second-placed Wigan and fourth-placed Rotherham and demoted to the play-offs. Fascinating to hear their thoughts if that happened.

These lawsuits matter because, as specious as they may appear, if successful they could count as football debts, requiring priority repayment. Quantuma, Derby’s administrators, fear if that were the case, the value of the settlement would be almost as big as the entire value of the club.

No buyer is prepared to move until this is resolved. And without a saviour Derby could be just a week from liquidation. Where are the EFL in this? Incredibly, their main involvement is alleged to be a deal with Middlesbrough to stop Steve Gibson suing them over failure to regulate Derby efficiently. This may actually have paved the way for Middlesbrough to sue Derby instead.

Of course Middlesbrough and Wycombe are also emboldened in their mission to prove a football club is not responsible for its results or league position by the precedent set when Sheffield United sued West Ham.


Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation as they seek a new buyer
Lord Griffiths ruled that Sheffield United did not go down because they scored fewer goals away from home, or lost more away games than any other team in the Premier League in 2006-07, and they didn’t go down because they failed to avoid defeat by Wigan on the final day of the season.

Winning just two games before November 28 was incidental as was a run of two wins, two draws and seven defeats in their last 11 matches, eight points from 33. No, Griffiths decided, Sheffield United were relegated because West Ham hid paperwork regarding Carlos Tevez. West Ham paid compensation of £10m, which Sheffield United invested wisely on falling through another division.

So here we are. One imagines football knows Griffiths made a rogue decision because in 14 years nobody has sought to use its precedent. Until now. So this isn’t merely a little squabble between faraway clubs of which we know nothing. If Middlesbrough and Wycombe are allowed to replay entire seasons as fantasy, one day we could lose some of English football’s most iconic moments, such as Sergio Aguero’s title-winning goal. Bird & Bird, an international law firm, are currently revisiting all the historic FFP claims against Manchester City, at the request of the Premier League, under pressure from rival clubs.

We know the end game: to clip City’s wings, beneath the guise of preventing related-party sponsorships at Newcastle. In truth, few are greatly worried about Newcastle for now — they might not even be in the Premier League next season — but City are a proven threat.


Middlesbrough owner Steve Gibson (centre) is taking legal action against Derby County
Now, if the Premier League can prove financial wrongdoing where UEFA failed, and if Derby end up responsible for Middlesbrough’s continued presence in the Championship, and Wycombe’s return to League One, who might come to claim Manchester City’s titles in 2011-12 or 2013-14? And won’t that be a delight; the same asterisk- ridden roll of honour that distinguishes Italian football?

Derby broke the rules, we know that. Yet nobody can argue they have not been punished. They have had 21 points deducted and stand on the brink of extinction. At what point is enough enough?

Earlier this week the EFL issued a statement explaining their stance on Derby. It ran to 2,058 words and included answers to such grave enquiries as: ‘Does the EFL have a vendetta against Derby County?’

‘The EFL has no vendetta against any of its member clubs,’ it was earnestly explained. To which it might be argued that if you’ve got to clarify, as a nurturing administrative body, that you are not engaged in what can be defined as anything from ‘a prolonged and bitter quarrel or campaign’ to ‘a blood feud’ with one of your founder member clubs, you might want to look at your own processes. Equally, nothing shrieks top governance like an important statement being released at 9.31pm on a Monday.

Maybe this is football’s future. Sue your way to success. Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby.
It's an utterly shameful article actually. It doesn't mention Mel Morris' name once. I wonder why...:unsure:

It could have been written by Morris himself it's so biased - "Ambition Tax", indeed.
 
We are traditionally the victims of other things oe injustices either actually or in our heads 😊 but I would rather the EFL/FA were the ones holding rhe gun to derby's forehead...metaphorically.
Gibbo will always be one of the fathers of teesside in a way....and I do applaud him holding derby to account.
But I am truly torn...I don't want boro to be the reason derby go to the wall...they are a part of English football heritage.
The fact gibbo is doing this shows what a toothless bunch of wan%ers the football authorities are
They should be rooting it out...they should be ensuring compliance so people like Mel Morris can't f%%% over a good football club

I hope gibbo and Mike Ashley come to a fair compromise ...but we will forever be cast as the pantomime villain here and thats wrong

I didn't know 'The Merchant of Venice' was a pantomime.
 
This is the best article I've seen on the subject, and perfectly explains the opinion as supported by Adis points that the claims are spurious, and more importantly why we come out of all this so bad.

MARTIN SAMUEL: Derby are on the brink of extinction and had 21 points deducted - isn't that enough now? Middlesbrough and Wycombe lawsuits are based on playing fantasy football
By Martin Samuel - Sport for the Daily Mail

Championship side Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation
Rams' past financial misconduct has seen them punished with points deduction
Middlesbrough and Wycombe are taking legal action over potential lost revenue
But their case is built on fantasy seasons and is a result of mishandling by the EFL
What stopped Middlesbrough becoming a Premier League club at the end of the 2018-19 season? Derby, apparently.

Not the six straight games they lost between March 9 and April 6. Not taking one point from a possible 21 at a crucial stage in the season. Not losing home and away to Nottingham Forest who finished ninth. Not losing at home to Bristol City (eighth), Sheffield Wednesday (12th) or Preston (14th).

No, it was all down to Derby, whose cheating of the EFL’s financial fair play rules — the ambition tax, as it should be known — meant that they claimed sixth place by one point from Middlesbrough, who came seventh, therefore missing out on the play-offs, which they no doubt would have won.


Middlesbrough just missed out on a place in the Championship play-offs to Derby in 2019

Derby County are on the brink of falling into liquidation within the next few days

Victory must be presumed if Middlesbrough’s case against them is to be worth anywhere near the £40million compensation widely reported. A failed play-off campaign accrues nowhere near that. Forbes do not breathlessly discuss the fortune from merely getting into the play-offs.


It is winning that is football’s equivalent of Willy Wonka’s golden ticket. For Derby to owe Middlesbrough any figure worth having, it is the Premier League they must have been denied, not the opportunity to slump forlornly on the Wembley pitch while another team gallivants with joy.


For Middlesbrough’s case to succeed, then, certain assumptions must be made. The first is that they would have done something over two legs that they hadn’t managed all season: namely beat Leeds. If Middlesbrough had taken Derby’s spot their play-off semi-final opponents would have been Leeds, who finished third, nine points ahead. And Middlesbrough’s results against Marcelo Bielsa’s side that season were a 0-0 draw at Elland Road, and 1-1 at home. So they didn’t lose, but nor did they win.

So, having beaten Leeds — who, by the way, defeated Middlesbrough home and away the following season, 5-0 on aggregate — only Aston Villa stood between Middlesbrough and the Premier League. And it’s a good job these meetings are taking place in the realms of the unknown because here on earth when Villa played Middlesbrough that season they won 3-0, both home and away.

The league table, and results, suggest Villa were a much better team than Middlesbrough at the time. We can never know what might have happened in a third meeting, which will be Middlesbrough’s case; but we could make a calculated guess; certainly if the very future of Derby depends on it.


Leeds United defeated Middlesbrough home and away during the 2019-20 season
And it does. The club is looking at potential liquidation and any sale is being complicated by lawsuits from Middlesbrough and, incredibly, Wycombe Wanderers — the lucky losers of the pandemic. Wycombe also claim that their season, 2020-21, was the work of another club, and they would have maintained Championship status were it not for Derby’s cheating. This ignores their failure to win a match until October 31, or record more than two wins before December 29.

Equally, Wycombe only arrived in the Championship by an arbitrary calculation that defies all reason, the great beneficiaries of 3.7 points for a win.

In 2020, when the EFL curtailed the League One season due to the pandemic, they also decided to maintain promotion and relegation. But with no matches being played, they turned to the realms of fantasy. League positions would be settled on points per game. The total number of points for each club would be divided by the games they had played, and used to make a calculation across 46 matches.

Using PPG, Wycombe, who had a game in hand, jumped from eighth to third, based on 1.73 points per game. Yet their game in hand was away at top of the table Coventry, who were averaging 1.97 points per game. That made the imaginary Coventry versus Wycombe a 3.7-point match. Yet when Wycombe’s promotion rivals visited Coventry and played a real game with real footballers, they could only receive three points, maximum.


Along with Middlesbrough, Wycombe Wanderers are filing lawsuits against Derby
One might think, then, that in the circumstances Wycombe would consider themselves lucky to get a crack at the Championship and accept their fate — just as the teams they leapfrogged in 2020 accepted theirs. But no. Wycombe have a grand sense of entitlement and think they went down because Derby cheated, not because they were over-promoted by an EFL whim, so want paying out, too.

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Interestingly, if League One was curtailed now and PPG enforced, Wycombe, who are top, would be overtaken by second-placed Wigan and fourth-placed Rotherham and demoted to the play-offs. Fascinating to hear their thoughts if that happened.

These lawsuits matter because, as specious as they may appear, if successful they could count as football debts, requiring priority repayment. Quantuma, Derby’s administrators, fear if that were the case, the value of the settlement would be almost as big as the entire value of the club.

No buyer is prepared to move until this is resolved. And without a saviour Derby could be just a week from liquidation. Where are the EFL in this? Incredibly, their main involvement is alleged to be a deal with Middlesbrough to stop Steve Gibson suing them over failure to regulate Derby efficiently. This may actually have paved the way for Middlesbrough to sue Derby instead.

Of course Middlesbrough and Wycombe are also emboldened in their mission to prove a football club is not responsible for its results or league position by the precedent set when Sheffield United sued West Ham.


Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation as they seek a new buyer
Lord Griffiths ruled that Sheffield United did not go down because they scored fewer goals away from home, or lost more away games than any other team in the Premier League in 2006-07, and they didn’t go down because they failed to avoid defeat by Wigan on the final day of the season.

Winning just two games before November 28 was incidental as was a run of two wins, two draws and seven defeats in their last 11 matches, eight points from 33. No, Griffiths decided, Sheffield United were relegated because West Ham hid paperwork regarding Carlos Tevez. West Ham paid compensation of £10m, which Sheffield United invested wisely on falling through another division.

So here we are. One imagines football knows Griffiths made a rogue decision because in 14 years nobody has sought to use its precedent. Until now. So this isn’t merely a little squabble between faraway clubs of which we know nothing. If Middlesbrough and Wycombe are allowed to replay entire seasons as fantasy, one day we could lose some of English football’s most iconic moments, such as Sergio Aguero’s title-winning goal. Bird & Bird, an international law firm, are currently revisiting all the historic FFP claims against Manchester City, at the request of the Premier League, under pressure from rival clubs.

We know the end game: to clip City’s wings, beneath the guise of preventing related-party sponsorships at Newcastle. In truth, few are greatly worried about Newcastle for now — they might not even be in the Premier League next season — but City are a proven threat.


Middlesbrough owner Steve Gibson (centre) is taking legal action against Derby County
Now, if the Premier League can prove financial wrongdoing where UEFA failed, and if Derby end up responsible for Middlesbrough’s continued presence in the Championship, and Wycombe’s return to League One, who might come to claim Manchester City’s titles in 2011-12 or 2013-14? And won’t that be a delight; the same asterisk- ridden roll of honour that distinguishes Italian football?

Derby broke the rules, we know that. Yet nobody can argue they have not been punished. They have had 21 points deducted and stand on the brink of extinction. At what point is enough enough?

Earlier this week the EFL issued a statement explaining their stance on Derby. It ran to 2,058 words and included answers to such grave enquiries as: ‘Does the EFL have a vendetta against Derby County?’

‘The EFL has no vendetta against any of its member clubs,’ it was earnestly explained. To which it might be argued that if you’ve got to clarify, as a nurturing administrative body, that you are not engaged in what can be defined as anything from ‘a prolonged and bitter quarrel or campaign’ to ‘a blood feud’ with one of your founder member clubs, you might want to look at your own processes. Equally, nothing shrieks top governance like an important statement being released at 9.31pm on a Monday.

Maybe this is football’s future. Sue your way to success. Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby.
This is the best article you've seen?!!
Did you even read it?
I've no idea what Samuel's associations with Derby or Morris are, but this comes across as pure anti-MFC propaganda.
 
Not in my experience, no. There are a multitude of possibilities and very often silence is an important negotiating tool. Look, I'm not here to defend Derby or their administrators. I couldn't care less about any of them to be perfectly honest beyond not wanting them to disappear. But here's a potential scenario; let's say you've got:

(a) HMRC sat as a preferential creditor (certainly in relation to some of the taxes owed);
(b) a bunch of potential buyers happy to structure some sort of deal with HMRC that needs to be negotiated;
(c) a couple of Claimants pursuing massive amounts in damages and arguing that they should be recorded as creditors (a pretty complicated technical legal point);
(d) that same bunch of buyers, whilst being happy to structure repayments to HMRC, being entirely unwilling to take the risk of pending multi-million pound claims from rival football clubs; and
(e) no doubt a heap of other unsecured and potentially secured creditors.

Then you put all of that in the mix in terms of what the duties of an administrator are i.e. to act in good faith, fairly and honourably, to be and be seen to be independent and impartial and to act as quickly and efficiently as is reasonably practicable with regard to the interests of the creditors as a whole.

So what do they have to think about here? Well, are the claimant football club's creditors? What is the strength of their respective legal cases? WHat is the advice on the technical legal status of those clubs? What is the position of the potential buyers in relation to HMRC? They also can't 'prefer' creditors and so negotiating settlements with two claimants who may or may not be creditors isn't easy either. What do the buyer's want to do with those claims? What mandate can there be in terms of negotiating settlement options with the clubs? If the advice is that the claims are weak, would it be in the best interests of creditors to settle claims that have little legal merit or defend them? Would creditors benefit more from a settlement of many millions (which by implication means the other creditors get less on a sale) or to spend money on legal costs defending them? What decision can be taken on these claims in the context of looking after the interests of the creditors as a whole?

You've got a massive, complex web of legality, decisions on merits, tactics, forecasting and any number of stakeholders and buyers. It doesn't strike me as odd in the least that in all of that a decision has been taken to say nothing to the two clubs for a couple of months whilst the administrators get their ducks in a row. In fact, I'd be more surprised if they dove into settlement discussions quickly.
A helpful and articulate summary of the undoubted complexities that explains the Administrators actions.
But that is only one of the characters in this play. The plot is still a treacherous one and we know the villain.
The hero may have been clumsy in the delivery of one or two of his lines, but should still win the day and rapturous applause.
 
A helpful and articulate summary of the undoubted complexities that explains the Administrators actions.
But that is only one of the characters in this play. The plot is still a treacherous one and we know the villain.
The hero may have been clumsy in the delivery of one or two of his lines, but should still win the day and rapturous applause.

I love the analogy! I'm not sure I would go along with the notion that Gibson is a white knight type hero in this tale but I think I am going to keep my thoughts to myself on this subject now. There are enough fans and enough people/organisations in the public eye taking a particular view on the club and on this case. I have my views and they won't change but I don't need to share them and add to that negativity and noise.

Get a room:)

Ah the green eyed monster. You can come along too Indeedido!
 
This is the best article I've seen on the subject, and perfectly explains the opinion as supported by Adis points that the claims are spurious, and more importantly why we come out of all this so bad.
what a rediuclous and skewed assertion an article talking about Derby's situation that mentions Mel Morris a grand total of ZERO times is apparently the best article you have seen? Give me a break newbie (and not at all a derby fan or troll)
 
I love the analogy! I'm not sure I would go along with the notion that Gibson is a white knight type hero in this tale but I think I am going to keep my thoughts to myself on this subject now. There are enough fans and enough people/organisations in the public eye taking a particular view on the club and on this case. I have my views and they won't change but I don't need to share them and add to that negativity and noise.



Ah the green eyed monster. You can come along too Indeedido!
Perve. :)
 
Apologies - I just finished posting this on the other Derby thread - but it took me about 40 mins between cups of T.(y)
The only sentence worth reading is the last one:


"Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby".
spot on, although I don't even think the last part of the sentence is relevant as it isn't the EFLs job to save Derby, it's Mel Morris's job to make sure Derby never need saving, and the administrators job to find a safe path through the swamp Mel created to save the club.

The EFL have multiple responsibilities many of which are mutually exclusive to saving Derby right now, such as ensuring the integrity of FFP, providing fair support and representation of all 72 member teams, ensuring all footballing debts are paid regardless who the recipient is, and preserving league integrity by ensuring Derby prove funds available to finish season and ensuring they don't continue with a squad of players that is beyond their means to pay footballing debts
 
This is the best article I've seen on the subject, and perfectly explains the opinion as supported by Adis points that the claims are spurious, and more importantly why we come out of all this so bad.

MARTIN SAMUEL: Derby are on the brink of extinction and had 21 points deducted - isn't that enough now? Middlesbrough and Wycombe lawsuits are based on playing fantasy football
By Martin Samuel - Sport for the Daily Mail

Championship side Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation
Rams' past financial misconduct has seen them punished with points deduction
Middlesbrough and Wycombe are taking legal action over potential lost revenue
But their case is built on fantasy seasons and is a result of mishandling by the EFL
What stopped Middlesbrough becoming a Premier League club at the end of the 2018-19 season? Derby, apparently.

Not the six straight games they lost between March 9 and April 6. Not taking one point from a possible 21 at a crucial stage in the season. Not losing home and away to Nottingham Forest who finished ninth. Not losing at home to Bristol City (eighth), Sheffield Wednesday (12th) or Preston (14th).

No, it was all down to Derby, whose cheating of the EFL’s financial fair play rules — the ambition tax, as it should be known — meant that they claimed sixth place by one point from Middlesbrough, who came seventh, therefore missing out on the play-offs, which they no doubt would have won.


Middlesbrough just missed out on a place in the Championship play-offs to Derby in 2019

Derby County are on the brink of falling into liquidation within the next few days

Victory must be presumed if Middlesbrough’s case against them is to be worth anywhere near the £40million compensation widely reported. A failed play-off campaign accrues nowhere near that. Forbes do not breathlessly discuss the fortune from merely getting into the play-offs.


It is winning that is football’s equivalent of Willy Wonka’s golden ticket. For Derby to owe Middlesbrough any figure worth having, it is the Premier League they must have been denied, not the opportunity to slump forlornly on the Wembley pitch while another team gallivants with joy.


For Middlesbrough’s case to succeed, then, certain assumptions must be made. The first is that they would have done something over two legs that they hadn’t managed all season: namely beat Leeds. If Middlesbrough had taken Derby’s spot their play-off semi-final opponents would have been Leeds, who finished third, nine points ahead. And Middlesbrough’s results against Marcelo Bielsa’s side that season were a 0-0 draw at Elland Road, and 1-1 at home. So they didn’t lose, but nor did they win.

So, having beaten Leeds — who, by the way, defeated Middlesbrough home and away the following season, 5-0 on aggregate — only Aston Villa stood between Middlesbrough and the Premier League. And it’s a good job these meetings are taking place in the realms of the unknown because here on earth when Villa played Middlesbrough that season they won 3-0, both home and away.

The league table, and results, suggest Villa were a much better team than Middlesbrough at the time. We can never know what might have happened in a third meeting, which will be Middlesbrough’s case; but we could make a calculated guess; certainly if the very future of Derby depends on it.


Leeds United defeated Middlesbrough home and away during the 2019-20 season
And it does. The club is looking at potential liquidation and any sale is being complicated by lawsuits from Middlesbrough and, incredibly, Wycombe Wanderers — the lucky losers of the pandemic. Wycombe also claim that their season, 2020-21, was the work of another club, and they would have maintained Championship status were it not for Derby’s cheating. This ignores their failure to win a match until October 31, or record more than two wins before December 29.

Equally, Wycombe only arrived in the Championship by an arbitrary calculation that defies all reason, the great beneficiaries of 3.7 points for a win.

In 2020, when the EFL curtailed the League One season due to the pandemic, they also decided to maintain promotion and relegation. But with no matches being played, they turned to the realms of fantasy. League positions would be settled on points per game. The total number of points for each club would be divided by the games they had played, and used to make a calculation across 46 matches.

Using PPG, Wycombe, who had a game in hand, jumped from eighth to third, based on 1.73 points per game. Yet their game in hand was away at top of the table Coventry, who were averaging 1.97 points per game. That made the imaginary Coventry versus Wycombe a 3.7-point match. Yet when Wycombe’s promotion rivals visited Coventry and played a real game with real footballers, they could only receive three points, maximum.


Along with Middlesbrough, Wycombe Wanderers are filing lawsuits against Derby
One might think, then, that in the circumstances Wycombe would consider themselves lucky to get a crack at the Championship and accept their fate — just as the teams they leapfrogged in 2020 accepted theirs. But no. Wycombe have a grand sense of entitlement and think they went down because Derby cheated, not because they were over-promoted by an EFL whim, so want paying out, too.

ADVERTISEMENT

Interestingly, if League One was curtailed now and PPG enforced, Wycombe, who are top, would be overtaken by second-placed Wigan and fourth-placed Rotherham and demoted to the play-offs. Fascinating to hear their thoughts if that happened.

These lawsuits matter because, as specious as they may appear, if successful they could count as football debts, requiring priority repayment. Quantuma, Derby’s administrators, fear if that were the case, the value of the settlement would be almost as big as the entire value of the club.

No buyer is prepared to move until this is resolved. And without a saviour Derby could be just a week from liquidation. Where are the EFL in this? Incredibly, their main involvement is alleged to be a deal with Middlesbrough to stop Steve Gibson suing them over failure to regulate Derby efficiently. This may actually have paved the way for Middlesbrough to sue Derby instead.

Of course Middlesbrough and Wycombe are also emboldened in their mission to prove a football club is not responsible for its results or league position by the precedent set when Sheffield United sued West Ham.


Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation as they seek a new buyer
Lord Griffiths ruled that Sheffield United did not go down because they scored fewer goals away from home, or lost more away games than any other team in the Premier League in 2006-07, and they didn’t go down because they failed to avoid defeat by Wigan on the final day of the season.

Winning just two games before November 28 was incidental as was a run of two wins, two draws and seven defeats in their last 11 matches, eight points from 33. No, Griffiths decided, Sheffield United were relegated because West Ham hid paperwork regarding Carlos Tevez. West Ham paid compensation of £10m, which Sheffield United invested wisely on falling through another division.

So here we are. One imagines football knows Griffiths made a rogue decision because in 14 years nobody has sought to use its precedent. Until now. So this isn’t merely a little squabble between faraway clubs of which we know nothing. If Middlesbrough and Wycombe are allowed to replay entire seasons as fantasy, one day we could lose some of English football’s most iconic moments, such as Sergio Aguero’s title-winning goal. Bird & Bird, an international law firm, are currently revisiting all the historic FFP claims against Manchester City, at the request of the Premier League, under pressure from rival clubs.

We know the end game: to clip City’s wings, beneath the guise of preventing related-party sponsorships at Newcastle. In truth, few are greatly worried about Newcastle for now — they might not even be in the Premier League next season — but City are a proven threat.


Middlesbrough owner Steve Gibson (centre) is taking legal action against Derby County
Now, if the Premier League can prove financial wrongdoing where UEFA failed, and if Derby end up responsible for Middlesbrough’s continued presence in the Championship, and Wycombe’s return to League One, who might come to claim Manchester City’s titles in 2011-12 or 2013-14? And won’t that be a delight; the same asterisk- ridden roll of honour that distinguishes Italian football?

Derby broke the rules, we know that. Yet nobody can argue they have not been punished. They have had 21 points deducted and stand on the brink of extinction. At what point is enough enough?

Earlier this week the EFL issued a statement explaining their stance on Derby. It ran to 2,058 words and included answers to such grave enquiries as: ‘Does the EFL have a vendetta against Derby County?’

‘The EFL has no vendetta against any of its member clubs,’ it was earnestly explained. To which it might be argued that if you’ve got to clarify, as a nurturing administrative body, that you are not engaged in what can be defined as anything from ‘a prolonged and bitter quarrel or campaign’ to ‘a blood feud’ with one of your founder member clubs, you might want to look at your own processes. Equally, nothing shrieks top governance like an important statement being released at 9.31pm on a Monday.

Maybe this is football’s future. Sue your way to success. Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby.
If this is the best article you have seen then you are not using your senses well enough.
If you are allowing it to form your judgements then you are not using your brain.
 
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