Labour 10 points ahead of Tories...

I'm not sure immigration has the cut through it had in 2016.

The last few years have reminded people of their value.
Hope so, I just know how effective it has been in the past, whip up middle England to a frenzy with " Labour will allow the uk to open the flood gates etc". Usually all the noise on social.media etc it looks like Labour are roming, then on voting day the gammons all put their x in the tories box thinking they will go back the grand old days of the entire!
 
Hope so, I just know how effective it has been in the past, whip up middle England to a frenzy with " Labour will allow the uk to open the flood gates etc". Usually all the noise on social.media etc it looks like Labour are roming, then on voting day the gammons all put their x in the tories box thinking they will go back the grand old days of the entire!
Romping home nor roming
 
I don't disagree with some of that Andy, but it's very subjective. That's OK and vive Le difference, it makes life interesting.

You may well know voters who support your opinion, it's why you formed your opinion. It's not very accurate though.

There was a clear movement, of seeing voters to tory in 2019 based on the attrition of brexit. Its a fact. That with Corbyns one more referendum did for him. It wasn't he was weak, it was people were fed up. "ok **** it, let's move on". That's a fact, supported by a mori poll after the election. Those numbers gave Johnson his majority, which I say again, he won lots of seats with a tiny majority.

Tories were never going to sustain that, even had they been competent.
I make my own mind up, certainly not influenced by friends, but to be fair they could be influenced by me more recently, as I've probably got more of an interest in to now. In reality though, most of the discussions have been retrospective, discussing reasons a long time after, as I hang around more with different groups of friends at different times, depending on where I am etc.

Of course, loads voted Tory for Brexit, some voted Labour for remain, but more would have done the latter had Corbyn's position been a lot clearer, and had he not had a history of Euroscepticism. Winning seats is the game in town, not vote share, so some of that could be down to down to boundaries and local MP's etc. Loads of people don't vote Tory, as they hate Tories, but then go and vote independent or whatever, as they just did not see a future with Labour or Corbyn, that's largely changed now, which is good, as otherwise they were just Tory enablers.

End of the day, Corbyn was targeted by the media, but you need to be able to handle that, and make yourself less of a target, there's no getting away form it, as the press are all Tory, and a load of voters are influenced by the press as they think they represent the view of the people (which they don't), they just try and steer the people.

They couldn't sustain 365 seats, certainly not with a new Labour leader, but even against a new leader they would not have expected to go below 300 predicted, and they've been absolutely battered, and Labour have just sat waiting to hoover them up.
 
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I agree, totally and utterly, but the Conservatives can't make it about the economy anymore, they blew that up! So they WILL, make this about immigration, Labour must be ready to take a different stance to the usual one, I hate it, but to win, it will boil down to this, and the language they use. If they make the mistake of thinking the British public will see past the whole thing and realise it is designed to divide us with hate, then they are wrong. It will all be about immigration and if Labour appear to be pro or soft on it they will lose, much to my dismay.
Yep, you're right on this, we can't deny how ignorant and discriminant a fair chunk of our population are, it's horrendous, but they're not goign anywhere.

If Labour just go down the line of "a points/ demand based system", then they will be fine. They could just highlight the demand for drivers, nurses, labour etc, and just let loads in who stay in those roles for 5 years or whatever. If they show that as a positive effect on inflation, and explain what inflation actually means (as loads don't understand it), and how this will save people money, then they should be alright. This will still lose votes mind, but probably not a massive amount.

I think freedom of movement is better, and less administration, but would be a hard sell to brexiters in a manifesto, and would scare a lot of people, but I expect within a couple of years time, the Tories will struggle to blame or hid behind covid, and the certain negative impact of Brexit will really be hitting home.
 
We give far too much credit to a wide section of the electorate. Elections are not won on policy or morals. Elections are won in the media. Everyone knew for some time the press demonised Corbyn had zero chance of winning. The press stirred up the 2019 election and made it about ‘Nationalism’. The Tory’s won based on three words ‘Get Brexit Done’. They didn’t need anything else. Corbyn and anybody else were the enemy of Nationalism. Refugee and immigrant apologists, terrorists sympathisers. Us up north got behind the Union Jack - nothing that’s happening now will move many from their position in 2019. They voted Tory out of some warped sense of it being their patriotic duty to do so. It was an incredible election campaign totally indoctrinating an electorate primed for brainwashing. Those who fight for justice, respect, the rights of the most disadvantaged- the ‘little people’ have a real battle on their hands at the next election as such thoughts are not of interest to the new One Nation Plastic Tories in of all places an area like Teesside.
 
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I'm not sure immigration has the cut through it had in 2016.

The last few years have reminded people of their value.
I hate to say it but I think you're wrong on this one. The brexit vote has legitimised the bigots viewpoint and emboldened them. The anti immigration underclass have a frighteningly strong voice.
 
Yep, you're right on this, we can't deny how ignorant and discriminant a fair chunk of our population are, it's horrendous, but they're not goign anywhere.

If Labour just go down the line of "a points/ demand based system", then they will be fine. They could just highlight the demand for drivers, nurses, labour etc, and just let loads in who stay in those roles for 5 years or whatever. If they show that as a positive effect on inflation, and explain what inflation actually means (as loads don't understand it), and how this will save people money, then they should be alright. This will still lose votes mind, but probably not a massive amount.

I think freedom of movement is better, and less administration, but would be a hard sell to brexiters in a manifesto, and would scare a lot of people, but I expect within a couple of years time, the Tories will struggle to blame or hid behind covid, and the certain negative impact of Brexit will really be hitting home.
So true, I honestly think if Labour can be "strong on immigration", and try not to linger on social injustices for too long then they will romp home, keep pointing out the broken tory promises, the sleaze the lies, and then hammer home that they are not a soft touch on immigration, cap things off with a decent economic plan (for all) and the tories have nothing left to hang their expensive hats on!
 
Crystal clear on Brexit? That is just wrong.

November 2019
Let me rephrase then. Anyone who bothered to listen to any of the leader debates would have understood labour's brexit position. That only 68% thought the brexit parties stance was clear doesn't paint that poll on a very good light. I think only 56% thought the tories were clear and there slogan was... Well you know that. Of all 3 parties the tories were the least clear.
 
We give far too much credit to the electorate. Elections are not won on policy or morals. Elections are won in the media. Everyone knew for some time the press demonised Corbyn had zero chance of winning. The press stirred up the 2019 election and made it about ‘Nationalism’. The Tory’s won based on three words ‘Get Brexit Done’. They didn’t need anything else. Corbyn and anybody else were the enemy of Nationalism. Refugee and immigrant apologists, terrorists sympathisers. Us up north got behind the Union Jack - nothing that’s happening now will move many from their position in 2919. They voted Tory out of some warped sense of their patriotic duty. It was an incredible election campaign totally indoctrinating an electorate primed for brainwashing. Those who fight for justice, respect, the rights of the most disadvantaged- the ‘little people’ have a real battle on their hands at the next election as such thoughts are not of interests to the new One Nation Plastic Tories in of all places an area like Teesside.
Yep, agree with this.

As for policy and morals, we lose sight of that on here, as most people on threads like this are more interested in it, and have a much better grasp on it, even if some views differ. I bet the average grasp of it is far lower.

As for nationalism, I hate that, and can't believe this plays a big part in peoples thinking, but each to their own. The nationalists didn't really like Corbyn though, probably because he wasn't a flag shagger, and dressed a bit scruffy.
 
Let me rephrase then. Anyone who bothered to listen to any of the leader debates would have understood labour's brexit position. That only 68% thought the brexit parties stance was clear doesn't paint that poll on a very good light. I think only 56% thought the tories were clear and there slogan was... Well you know that. Of all 3 parties the tories were the least clear.
To be fair the lesser involved probably assumed Labours stance being opposite that of the Tory's, and didn't pay much attention, but it was far from clear to me, especially pre 2018 when it mattered most.

People reading the express and crap like that aren't likely watching debates and reading manifesto's, they chat to their mates who are often like minded, and fuel each others fire/ hatred.

To be fair "get brexit done" wasn't very clear as there were about 12 versions of Brexit doing the rounds, but I know what you mean.

All those surveys also illustrate is how clueless the public are, so the parties really need to cater for this and dumb it right down for some.
 
I hate to say it but I think you're wrong on this one. The brexit vote has legitimised the bigots viewpoint and emboldened them. The anti immigration underclass have a frighteningly strong voice.
I see both sides of this, some might have slackened on the issue though, but certainly the hardcore lot will have dug in even more, I noticed this after the vote, there was racist graffiti all over the place, like it had been legitimised. Don't see so much of it now, so maybe they realise racism isn't sound again, and have gone back to hiding it when not with their racist mates. Still plenty of them about in the shadows though.
 
I see both sides of this, some might have slackened on the issue though, but certainly the hardcore lot will have dug in even more, I noticed this after the vote, there was racist graffiti all over the place, like it had been legitimised. Don't see so much of it now, so maybe they realise racism isn't sound again, and have gone back to hiding it when not with their racist mates. Still plenty of them about in the shadows though.
Good point. There will always be racists and I think it is starting to go back in to hiding again. The post Brexit months were horrendous, the racist graffiti all over the Polish community centre near me was shocking. Hopefully it'll be less mainstream come next election. We just need to be conscious there'll still be a lot of bigotry around, No matter how badly it has failed the "getbrexitdun" lot still exist and in dangerously high numbers
 
Good point. There will always be racists and I think it is starting to go back in to hiding again. The post Brexit months were horrendous, the racist graffiti all over the Polish community centre near me was shocking. Hopefully it'll be less mainstream come next election. We just need to be conscious there'll still be a lot of bigotry around, No matter how badly it has failed the "getbrexitdun" lot still exist and in dangerously high numbers
There'll be someone along shortly saying "it doesn't exist", but it clearly does, and also "not all brexiters are racists", which I never said either, but most racists are brexiters of course. But don't want to derail the thread onto that again.
 
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Hope so, I just know how effective it has been in the past, whip up middle England to a frenzy with " Labour will allow the uk to open the flood gates etc". Usually all the noise on social.media etc it looks like Labour are roming, then on voting day the gammons all put their x in the tories box thinking they will go back the grand old days of the entire!

It must have cut through with a certain Tory base demographic, since Patel and co. still play to it. That Farage keeps highlighting it shows that, for him, despite what was claimed after, Brexit was about immigration. They clearly think, in their racist bubbles, that this applies and the Tories fear it because it is a big priority issue for their members.

I think it is less of an issue now for the public in general, as even those who might prefer not to have immigrants have realised they are valuable and necessary hard workers with skills or mindset we lack and not having them is now impacting on them. Some were sold the anti immigrant rhetoric on benefit scrounger/economic grounds that most can now see was guff.

What do I know though? When it comes to politics, psychology is king and the Conservatives, riven by fear that someone else will take something that could, ought to be theirs, are very adept at understanding and then pushing those sort of buttons. Most people do have those buttons.

Labour need to push different buttons.
 
It must have cut through with a certain Tory base demographic, since Patel and co. still play to it. That Farage keeps highlighting it shows that, for him, despite what was claimed after, Brexit was about immigration. They clearly think, in their racist bubbles, that this applies and the Tories fear it because it is a big priority issue for their members.

I think it is less of an issue now for the public in general, as even those who might prefer not to have immigrants have realised they are valuable and necessary hard workers with skills or mindset we lack and not having them is now impacting on them. Some were sold the anti immigrant rhetoric on benefit scrounger/economic grounds that most can now see was guff.

What do I know though? When it comes to politics, psychology is king and the Conservatives, riven by fear that someone else will take something that could, ought to be theirs, are very adept at understanding and then pushing those sort of buttons. Most people do have those buttons.

Labour need to push different buttons.
I agree, but most importantly, they need to win. I just fear that in 2 years with rishi at the wheel, labours button won't be big enough. Burnham is the one I think could bring a huge chunk of the middle with him and also re gain the North, starmer is not the main to break through this imo.
 
Watching Question Time right now and not one member of the audience wanted to stand up for Johnson when asked by the host. Even the Tory panel member has said straight from the off that he should resign.
 
It's a given now that the country is just waiting for a Johnson sacking or resignation. It's just a matter of time but is that really good news for labour? If it's Rishi to come next he has the potential (and time) to build up his popularity in middle England and chip away at the current labour lead. If the objective is to take No.10 and not just get shot of Johnson it might be better for Labour if Johnson performs some sort of miracle and survives his own parties beheading.
 
It's a given now that the country is just waiting for a Johnson sacking or resignation. It's just a matter of time but is that really good news for labour? If it's Rishi to come next he has the potential (and time) to build up his popularity in middle England and chip away at the current labour lead. If the objective is to take No.10 and not just get shot of Johnson it might be better for Labour if Johnson performs some sort of miracle and survives his own parties beheading.
He won't resign. But you're spot on with the rest. Johnson is so toxic the longer he stays in power the worse it will be for the Tories.
 
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