I have truly mixed feelings over derby...

Adi_Dem said:
Really? You still want to continue flogging this dead horse rather than just accepting that I have an opinion that differs from your own?
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No, I simply asked your opinion.

Adi_Dem said:
Putting to one side that just a few days ago you were adamant that there was no legal precedent
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As I pointed out, you speak in micro-aggressions. Yes, correct, I didn't think there were any comparable cases, I'd forgotten about this one, until someone brought it up. Why not just string me up by hte neck until dead, for not being immediately aware of every single case at the forefront of my mind.
Adi_Dem said:
The fundamental reason that Sheffield United were able to leverage a settlement is that their formal appeal against demotion was initially rejected by the Premier League only for an arbitration panel to later concede that it would have in all probability deducted points for fielding ineligible players and that the decision not to deduct points had therefore been incorrect.
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So they had material harm, however, there is just as much evidence that not having Tevez would allowed Sheff Utd to stay up as there is for Derby having access to a number of player would have allowed us to be promoted or wycombe to survive. So this shows that your initail argument why it would fail 'causation' has been proven in arbitration. You seem to be switching your argument from causation to punishment?!

Adi_Dem said:
ignoring this insane notion that your Wiki law degree has any equivalence here
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...and this reminds me why I blocked you, absolutely embaressing behaviour. I simply asked you a question and this is how you behave 🤦‍♂️ 🤡
 
BoroMart said:
No, I simply asked your opinion.


As I pointed out, you speak in micro-aggressions. Yes, correct, I didn't think there were any comparable cases, I'd forgotten about this one, until someone brought it up. Why not just string me up by hte neck until dead, for not being immediately aware of every single case at the forefront of my mind.

So they had material harm, however, there is just as much evidence that not having Tevez would allowed Sheff Utd to stay up as there is for Derby having access to a number of player would have allowed us to be promoted or wycombe to survive. So this shows that your initail argument why it would fail 'causation' has been proven in arbitration. You seem to be switching your argument from causation to punishment?!


...and this reminds me why I blocked you, absolutely embaressing behaviour. I simply asked you a question and this is how you behave 🤦‍♂️ 🤡
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Pure gaslighting. This thread speaks for itself. You need to take a look in the mirror.
 
BoroMart said:
So they had material harm, however, there is just as much evidence that not having Tevez would allowed Sheff Utd to stay up as there is for Derby having access to a number of player would have allowed us to be promoted or wycombe to survive. So this shows that your initail argument why it would fail 'causation' has been proven in arbitration. You seem to be switching your argument from causation to punishment?!
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I don’t even know what you’re trying to argue here. It’s nonsensical. I’ve very clearly not switched any argument. I don’t see how I could be any clearer. Just read it again.
 
Cress said:
I have truly mixed feelings over mart and adi’s discourse
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I have truly checked out, no point in being involved in his venomous nonsense, if he can't discuss and debate with dignity then I've lost any interest in him (and one other). So don't worry Cress, it's not a discourse anymore, simply a monologue from him into the ether
 
Surely the point is Adi that Derby have had to re-submit their Accounts for both the years to June 2019 and June 2020.
They were not penalised in the season where they pipped us, because they had produced unsatisfactory accounts from a FFP perspective.
The penalty of 9 points that they have received has not been taken in the year of offence. Had their books been good for 19 then their finish of 6th in May 2019 would have been fine. They weren't and their projection for 2019 will have proven wrong too (part of that 3 year rolling assessment). They deliberately mis-represented their financial actuals for the year to June 2019.
This was just one of the years they have cheated.

So for misdemeanours in 2019 they have finally been penalised with 9 points deduction in season 2021-22.
You claim that West Ham would have lost points had the right penalty been imposed on them for fielding ineligible players in the season they did so.
Had Derby posted the right projection for season 2018-19 and submitted the right actuals for that season then they would have been given their 9 points that summer - they would have missed the top 6 and we would have made it.
That they submitted with deceit, then delayed and delayed knowing they were wrong, means they should have been punished by more than the 9 points penalty. It certainly means MFC are entitled to make a claim now.
 
BoroMart said:
I have truly checked out, no point in being involved in his venomous nonsense, if he can't discuss and debate with dignity then I've lost any interest in him (and one other). So don't worry Cress, it's not a discourse anymore, simply a monologue from him into the ether
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More gaslighting.
 
indeedido said:
Surely the point is Adi that Derby have had to re-submit their Accounts for both the years to June 2019 and June 2020.
They were not penalised in the season where they pipped us, because they had produced unsatisfactory accounts from a FFP perspective.
The penalty of 9 points that they have received has not been taken in the year of offence. Had their books been good for 19 then their finish of 6th in May 2019 would have been fine. They weren't and their projection for 2019 will have proven wrong too (part of that 3 year rolling assessment). They deliberately mis-represented their financial actuals for the year to June 2019.
This was just one of the years they have cheated.

So for misdemeanours in 2019 they have finally been penalised with 9 points deduction in season 2021-22.
You claim that West Ham would have lost points had the right penalty been imposed on them for fielding ineligible players in the season they did so.
Had Derby posted the right projection for season 2018-19 and submitted the right actuals for that season then they would have been given their 9 points that summer - they would have missed the top 6 and we would have made it.
That they submitted with deceit, then delayed and delayed knowing they were wrong, means they should have been punished by more than the 9 points penalty. It certainly means MFC are entitled to make a claim now.
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I see the argument but the regs specifically stated that the punishment can be implemented at any time and any season. That makes sense and allows for appeals. It's also pertinent that they were deducted 9 points in part because of the deceit you describe. They may not have been deducted any points at all and instead suffered a fine. It's all ifs and buts but the penalty and the timing of it was not outside of their available powers whereas in the Sheff Utd case they simply didn't impose the correct punishment and an independent panel confirmed that on the record. But as I have repeatedly said, there may also be facts that we simply aren't aware of. This all started with me making a relatively innocent observation that (a) I disagreed with the club pursuing the case and (b) thought the case would likely fail on the causation issue. One person has then decided to embark upon a ridiculous vendetta across two threads with snark and passive aggression for reasons only he will know whilst simultaneously claiming to be the victim of 'micro-aggressions' that simply arent there, other than in direct response to his own approach.
 
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The worst thing about all this is it has taken the gloss off our great run of form and what Wilder is building
 
Oooo said:
The worst thing about all this is it has taken the gloss off our great run of form and what Wilder is building
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Not for me. Surely it's set aside. The politics of Football.
Not sure why it has to deaden our fantastic run? None of it is Wilder of the players?
How do you link it please?
 
Oooo said:
The worst thing about all this is it has taken the gloss off our great run of form and what Wilder is building
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not sure about htat, we've just got to make sure it isn't a distraction and we use it for motivation when we play derby, because we know they'll use it
 
Adi_Dem said:
I see the argument but the regs specifically stated that the punishment can be implemented at any time and any season. That makes sense and allows for appeals. It’s not outside of their available powers whereas in the Sheff Utd case they simply didn't impose the correct punishment and an independent panel confirmed that on the record. But as I have repeatedly said, there may be facts that we simply aren't aware of. This all started with me making a relatively innocent observation that (a) I disagreed with the club pursuing the case and (b) thought the case would likely fail on the causation issue. One person has then decided to embark upon a ridiclous vendetta with snark and passive aggression for reasons only he will know.
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You are both bright blokes with a lot of knowledge on some subjects (you are clearly a significant legal professional and expert)
You are also pretty strong guys who like the debate and a bit of edge, but like we all do, sometimes let passion over egg the pudding a bit.
You are also both massive Boro fans and we don't need you falling out in this possible automatic promotion season.

There is no right or wrong here. Mart and I on this issue are a bit harder nosed re how far we should push, whether such leverage is advisable, or even in keeping with our Club. You may be right and your morals purer, or you may be wrong.

The truth is that none of us have the full facts and a little knowledge can often be a dangerous thing.
 
BoroMart said:
Interesting view from the Wycombe chairman, a man who has 40 years experience as a trial lawyer

https://twitter.com/x/status/1483514528667213834
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that interview is class! although VERY worrying for Derby.. sounds like they are dead in the water administrators not really doing their job by the sound of it Mel Morris holding onto assets etc The Wycombe chairman is very level headed and pragmatic I'm a big fan.. like him a lot!
 
indeedido said:
You are both bright blokes with a lot of knowledge on some subjects (you are clearly a significant legal professional and expert)
You are also pretty strong guys who like the debate and a bit of edge, but like we all do, sometimes let passion over egg the pudding a bit.
You are also both massive Boro fans and we don't need you falling out in this possible automatic promotion season.

There is no right or wrong here. Mart and I on this issue are a bit harder nosed re how far we should push, whether such leverage is advisable, or even in keeping with our Club. You may be right and your morals purer, or you may be wrong.

The truth is that none of us have the full facts and a little knowledge can often be a dangerous thing.
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I completely agree, which is why I have been surprised at Mart's responses. I have checked back over to make sure I haven't ever crossed a line across the two threads and I can't see it. If I have then I am more than happy to apologise and move on. What I do see though is a lot of snark and aggression coming in my direction simply because I don't agree with him. It's a shame but there you go, I'm a big lad and I can cope!
 
newyddion said:
that interview is class! although VERY worrying for Derby.. sounds like they are dead in the water administrators not really doing their job by the sound of it Mel Morris holding onto assets etc The Wycombe chairman is very level headed and pragmatic I'm a big fan.. like him a lot!
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No, no no - it's all Middlesbrough, Gibson's, Wycombe, Mary Berry, Postman Pat's, etc, etc fault

NEVER DERBY
 
Adi_Dem said:
I completely agree, which is why I have been surprised at Mart's responses. I have checked back over to make sure I haven't ever crossed a line across the two threads and I can't see it. If I have then I am more than happy to apologise and move on. What I do see though is a lot of snark and aggression coming in my direction simply because I don't agree with him. It's a shame but there you go, I'm a big lad and I can cope!
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I'm sure you will both be debating on future threads and at each other, (or possibly me :)) on a range of other subjects.
I hope so anyway!
 
indeedido said:
I'm sure you will both be debating on future threads and at each other, (or possibly me :)) on a range of other subjects.
I hope so anyway!
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I doubt it, I assume he has now blocked me. It's a shame. I like him and agree with him on a lot of stuff, just not this!
 
zzzzz said:
Not for me. Surely it's set aside. The politics of Football.
Not sure why it has to deaden our fantastic run? None of it is Wilder of the players?
How do you link it please?
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Because this last few days have been dominated by Derby claiming we are trying to destroy them which has taken away from our concentration on our team. We are being labelled as the bad guys and that hurts the image of our club which I support. And for the first time I am starting to doubt Gibson's decision making. I think he should back down over all this personally.
 
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