Randy
Well-known member
I just assume they have all worked together and shared knowledge.
Us common folk won't see it for 18 months anyways.
Stop Posting the Conspiracy Rubbish
- Thread starter rob_fmttm
- Start date
Us common folk won't see it for 18 months anyways.
Ted_DN38416
Well-known member
In a way i suppose. Seems contrived to me like
bear66
Well-known member
Pfizer's went early with a two thirds finished study and others seemed to have followed. The Oxford vaccine must be in a similar position to Pfizer but are staying quiet for now.
Ted_DN38416
Well-known member
Sure
And just to add about vaccines.....
I'm no anti-vaxxer. I have taken vaccines myself of course and they can be very useful for either much of the population (e.g. BCG vaccine) or the vulnerable (Flu vaccines). Great, these are well tested, well established, good safety profiles.
We are heading into the realms of rushing through a vaccine which simply isn't fully tested. This is not anti-vax, it just just basic science. I work in medicinal chemistry and you wouldn't get a small molecule drug through in this length of time (and they are generally fairly easy to safety profile these days, less so efficacy).
I'm no anti-vaxxer. I have taken vaccines myself of course and they can be very useful for either much of the population (e.g. BCG vaccine) or the vulnerable (Flu vaccines). Great, these are well tested, well established, good safety profiles.
We are heading into the realms of rushing through a vaccine which simply isn't fully tested. This is not anti-vax, it just just basic science. I work in medicinal chemistry and you wouldn't get a small molecule drug through in this length of time (and they are generally fairly easy to safety profile these days, less so efficacy).
Exactly! T-cells are a long term immune defence. This is not new fangled stuff. Antibodies are only one form of defence yet SAGE are seemingly basing their models on serology (antibody detection) only.
T-cell tests are coming in but you simply won't see them being pushed by SAGE that much I can be pretty sure. They are trickier to carry out though and I doubt will be applicable to whole population testing (not that we need whole population testing anyway) but a survey could be carried out to determine the level of immunity within the population. These kind of studies are being done by academic groups but don't expect them to be carried out by government/SAGE. There is far more money to be handed out of the public purse (money you have paid in) by ramping up a not fit for purpose PCR test and mass testing large amounts of the healthy population.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Apparently there are some practical issues with the Pfizer vaccine in that it has to be stored at low temperature. Other similar vaccines are coming which are easier to store.
My daughter is involved in the clinical trials and this is what she was told.
OK, lets take this point by point.......
Some people who disagree with me actually try to ask questions or post data to back up their own point. You however don't do this and seem to suggest those of use providing publicly available data to support our argument as conspiracy theroists! What exactly is the conspiracy theory we are spreading?
2nd wave? The current excess death level for the UK is at the upper level over a 5 year period.
A second wave so deadly that the doctors and consultants I personally know at major northern hospitals are still carrying out routine work? Are they busy? Yes. Clearing the backlog of surgery/procedures resulting from a genuine epidemic in the spring (that massive orange spike)? Yes. Are they overwhelmed? Absolutely not. So don't tell me I'm wrong about hospitals just because the people you read about or know offer a different opinion.
I don'y know why you are going on about IFR to me, I have hardly mentioned it recently. I did back in the spring when I believed all the modeling. However, I can now look at real world data and understand how that fits in with some fundamental science.
You'll stick with PCR? I'll assume you are aware of the problems with PCR as a "mass testing" procedure? It is junk for that purpose. The CMO cannot even state the false positive rate
is for goodness sake!! If that can't be done the test is utterly meaningless! Could be 0% false, 10%, 100%. Which is it? It does matter and can be figured out. I can only assume they have chosen not to.
The YouTube video is a public lecture by Chris Whitty, not a conspiracy theory video. In it he explains the actions often taken during a respiratory virus epidemic. One of those quotes was that "airport screening and travel restrictions are utterly pointless" (or pretty much pointless). I posed a simple question as to why we have introduced these measures. The same for masks. The same for track and trace (as it is pointless for a highly infectious respiratory virus, great for other diseases) which was not recommended by WHO until late 2019. Is it unreasonable to ask why?
The role of SAGE is a discussion for a longer thread but you are very naive if you would never question advice to government. The BMJ have just published this (though you'll probably just accuse them of being conspiracy theorists:
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425
I'll just leave you with this Statto..........
The media constantly shoves X number of deaths a day in our faces. We are seeing reports of hundreds of covid deaths a day so maybe a couple of thousand over a week? And yet there is no significant change in excess deaths? If we weren't using a PCR test for which we don't know its limitations would we know anything was out of the ordinary in hospitals in many parts (not all) of the country?
No, because they're not. Only Pfizer so far, has announced a set of interim results that will allow them to request Emergency Use Authorization (which may or may not be granted, we don't know yet). Moderna is predicted to do something similar quite soon but even if they do, that's only two vaccines out of a total of over 200 vaccine candidates possibly (and possibly not) getting an EUA soon. It's hardly "all major players" and they're not really "rolling out" their vaccines just yet.
I'm also not sure how accurate it is to describe the Pfizer vaccine as being from a major player since they didn't develop it, they just provided additional funding to the company that did.
It was actually developed by a small German company, BioNTech, that is based in Mainz and was founded by a husband and wife team who are both the children of Turkish immigrants, Uğur Şahin and Özlem Türeci.
Finally, neither Pfizer nor BioNTech had any control over the timing of the announcement. The analysis that allowed for the announcement came from an independent Data Monitoring Committee and the two companies involved only learned of the DMC findings the day before making the announcement.
The scientists behind the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine
So overall, no I don't find it suspicious at all.
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ForssAwakens
Well-known member
There so much wrong with that graph I don’t where to start by explaining to you what is it
it’s using selective data to try and show there isn’t a pandemic, it’s dangerous using that really
Ted_DN38416
Well-known member
Pfizer not a major player? if you say so. I find it very suspicious.
the_smog_chorus
Active member
Then just post a graph you believe is correct, quoting the source.
ForssAwakens
Well-known member
Ted_DN38416
Well-known member
Whats the point in reviewing graphs at this stage? Doesn’t matter what side of the debate you’re on. Even if data is correct, it can be manipulated to show what you want it to demonstrate. Considering the tests themselves may not function as has been suggested its fair and reasonable to assume that any graph doesnt show what it purports to. Its a circular argument and i would suggests thats one of their main functions or purposes
the_smog_chorus
Active member
Hmm
I didn't say Pfizer is not a major player, I said it may not be entirely accurate to describe "their" vaccine as being from a major player because it really isn't their vaccine.
However the main reason why I don't find the timing of the announcement from them and another announcement from Moderna (potentially) coming soon as suspicious is because as stated, the companies themselves have no control over when the independent Data Monitoring Committees release their findings.
Ted_DN38416
Well-known member
If you say so. Its very suspicious that multiple vaccines are on the table simultaneously just post US election result. Seems awfully contrived to me
Genuine question - what is wrong with the graph ?
Surely it just shows actual data how you interpret it is the issue
To me it shows a huge amount of vulnerable people were killed by the first wave,sadly now there are less vulnerable people/better safeguards in place.
There is still a big problem but as evidence starts to emerge of excess deaths growing in other illness categories are we not pushing deaths from Covid to other diseases down the road.
Horrible thing to have to discuss but could we end up with the worst of both worlds - huge Covid deaths and in our well intentioned methods to reduce them huge excess deaths in other illnesses in the months and years to come.
ForssAwakens
Well-known member
First thing that is wrong it’s using the worst week form the last 5 years and comparing it this year. This is deliberate to play down the number of deaths we witness now and to make it feel more normal.
It even greys the minimum of the last 5 years to draw attention to the blue and orange line.
the reason everyone else is using a 5 year average it to take anomalies out of the equation.
To me the graph is trying to deceive and play down
FabioPorkpie
Well-known member
I think it’s fairly reasonable to expect several of the big vaccine players to announce results at a similar time, to be honest. The larger scale ones who have had the most money pumped in are naturally going to release soonest. They started their programs at roughly the same time, and so it’s natural some of them are seeing their results start to come through at roughly the same time.
I don’t understand why that’s unusual?
Personally, I’m hoping we see a flood of positive results in the coming weeks.
I’m pretty sure we will hear the Moderna results in the comings days, and I certainly welcome that.
Hopefully we’ll get positive news from the Oxford one soon too
