U-turn... guess who?

Cardiffdaffs said:
Exactly. Our country's finances are in an absolute shocking state and the Tory playbook is to go on the attack to deflect blame. It's what they do.
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John Maynard Keynes In his seminal work, The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money—considered one of the most influential economics books in history—he advocates government intervention as a solution to high unemployment..

Said. John Maynard Keynes — 'When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?'
 
1finny said:
Some help on differences -
VAT on Private schools
Taxing Non Doms
Ending tax breaks for private equity bosses

Estimated to generate circa £8bn - from the rich
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Ensure inheritance tax doesn't get abolished , reinstatement of the LTA on very large pension pots.
 
TheLodger said:
When the Tories have left the country in such a financial mess and tax at the highest in peace time history, the Tories then look to go war with someone to use an excuse for it, Labour prefer to sort the mess first and then move towards a green economy.
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This is false economy. The best way to improve the country's finances is to invest. We don't have to wait for some arbitrary figure to be reached before we do anything. We've been doing that since 2010.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
An end to ideological austerity, progressive taxation and wealth redistribution.

I have my fingers crossed that Labour can deliver this when they inevitably win the next election by a landslide.
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agreed, there are too many problems to fix in one parliament, the tories have well and truly fooked the social systems, economy and national psyche. It's 14 years of destruction to our social fabric as a nation. Anyone who thinks Labour can wave a magic wand and fix it all with one wave of a magic wand isn't being realistic. We can all argue about where the priorities are, but there has to be prioritisation, which means we are all going to have to accept that certain things must wait. That doesn't make Labour as bad as the Tories, they have shown intention to fix stuff, not destroy like the Tories.
 
Mustoes boots said:
Spending pledges have to be reined in due to the disastrous Liz Truss budget increasing government borrowing cost, our right wing media portray this as a Labour u turn not Tory incompetence.
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Cardiffdaffs said:
Exactly. Our country's finances are in an absolute shocking state and the Tory playbook is to go on the attack to deflect blame. It's what they do.
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TheLodger said:
Sad fact is, we can't afford another crash because of spending more money than we have got, Trust, Kwarteng, and Clarke tried that and we're all still paying the price.
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When are people going to wise up and stop falling for these lies? Investment is growth. New power stations is growth. the jobs created is growth, and most of the money that the country buys is not debt as we know it. The country cannot function without debt.
 
sherlock1969 said:
The country improved massively under Blair.
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It absolutely did. We had fairer wealth distribution than any time in my 50+ years, we had opportunity and positivity about the country, we had a positive economy with the most successive periods of GDP growth ever recorded. We had a functioning NHS and dentist that you could actually get an appointment with, we had foreign investment, sure start centres, cheaper cost of living, were part of a huge trading block, It wasn't perfect, it's not realistic to expect it to be, but it was far far better for 99% of us than this sh!tshow we have today, and the dying embers of Thatcherism before it.

I await the "but Iraq" comments which will conveniently ignore the fact that Saddam was a murderous sabre-rattling dictator that refused to play ball with the UN Inspectors, repeatedly threatened neighbours and the west, and murdered his own people in droves. The method of getting rid of him was poorly executed, because there wasn't a workable strategic plan which wouldn't leave a power vacuum, but breaking the Iraqi state machine of the 90s wasn't in itself an immoral act. It was just ideological to think that you could do it without massive collateral damage to the region.
 
Iraq was an absolutely disaster and should not have been handled the way it was. Until then Blair was doing a good job of things.
 
The mistake was putting a figure on it 3 or 4 years out from an election, there is a majority of people who can see the value of investment in future technology, energy security, warm homes initiatives etc but putting the £38b out there has left them open to the usual attack lines. Needs to regroup and sell the ideas and not just on this Labour as a whole need get on the front foot, there is virtually nothing that the Tories can beat them on given their abysmal record
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
When are people going to wise up and stop falling for these lies? Investment is growth. New power stations is growth. the jobs created is growth, and most of the money that the country buys is not debt as we know it. The country cannot function without debt.
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of course it is....but it needs funding and one key issue we have right now is that we need to borrow to invest and because of the tories economic failures it is now more expensive to borrow because we've lost our AAA rating. Debt is completely acceptable under certain parameters.

The tories always like to use the credit card example when they talk about labour taking on debt (despite the tories taking on far more for no gain), but that isn't a good example of incurring debt to invest. A better analogy is taking a bank loan to fund a house extension. Building the extension will create value on your house financially, but also socially it will create more space, maybe a home office to allow you to do your job and earn income, maybe a gym so that your family will save on gym memberships and have a much healthier lifestyle. Hard and soft benefits of that investment. the problem we have is that the household debt has skyrocketed under the tories, so when labour go to the bank for the extension loan, the bank see us as a bigger risk (no longer AAA rated) so will charge us more interest, which might mean we never see that financial value in the extension in our lifetime.

We could of course just print money, as a solution to raise capitol to invest, but that isn't consequence free either.

There will be investment under Labour, but it'll be limited because of the absolute car crash of an economy and social system that the tories have created.
 
This has been appallingly handled by the Labour leadership - the comms have been dreadful. Why the need for a specific announcement which now looks and smells like a U turn? let it drop, announce the individual policies later in the manifesto. Instead you gift the Tories another opportunity to look like you flip flop. This was needless.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
When are people going to wise up and stop falling for these lies? Investment is growth. New power stations is growth. the jobs created is growth, and most of the money that the country buys is not debt as we know it. The country cannot function without debt.
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The plans haven't been cancelled, just slowed down a bit, if we rock the financial markets like Clarkes mates did, the public will be the ones that end up paying.
 
Cardiffdaffs said:
Ensure inheritance tax doesn't get abolished , reinstatement of the LTA on very large pension pots.
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BlindBoyGrunt said:
When are people going to wise up and stop falling for these lies? Investment is growth. New power stations is growth. the jobs created is growth, and most of the money that the country buys is not debt as we know it. The country cannot function without debt.
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I agree with you but the people who will decide the outcome of the next election will have a field day with 'spending promises'. The one thing that can stop a change of government is for a chink of light that Labour are going to be irresponsible with the finances. Spending commitments are going to be scrutinised

It sticks in the throat though
 
BoroMart said:
the problem we have is that the household debt has skyrocketed under the tories, so when labour go to the bank for the extension loan, the bank see us as a bigger risk (no longer AAA rated) so will charge us more interest, which might mean we never see that financial value in the extension in our lifetime.
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This is just more of the same falling for the lies. The country doesn't have to go cap in hand for loans. It loans money to itself and creates the money to do so and there is no demand for this money to ever be repaid. The national debt began in 1694 and has been growing ever since but after 1971, when Stirling ceased to rely on gold reserves, it is now irellevent.

Most of the money in existence is created by commercial banks literally creating money out of thin air to grant loans and people are queuing up to buy government debt because it's the safest thing to invest in. Without debt we have no pensions, or life assurance policies because most of this stuff is protected by investing in government debt. Without debt we have no currency because currency is simply debt.

The Tories have always yearned for a small state and rely on private companies to prosper and create investment; if Labour follow this path then they have the same yearning. But we don't have to wait for any of this to happen. The state can invest right now. Investing in sustainable green energy = growth. The jobs to build it - and well insulated, quality social housing and anything else they wish to build = growth and the many jobs created to produce all of the above = growth and money circulating in local economies.
 
TheLodger said:
The plans haven't been cancelled, just slowed down a bit, if we rock the financial markets like Clarkes mates did, the public will be the ones that end up paying.
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Smoke and mirrors. When you left school and started work did you feel you were paying for WW2. No, and neither did I. But this is the lie that we are now being told. If we increase national debt our children will end up paying for it. It will be a millstone around their necks. It's all BS.
 
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